Sir Martin Gilbert – leading historian, Winston Churchill's official biographer, and the author of 81 books and atlases – spoke on Sunday about his work and modern history with Israel National Radio’s Yishai Fleisher. Among Gilbert's works are twin histories on the First World War and Second World War, a comprehensive History of Israel, and his three-volume work, A History of the Twentieth Century. He is an Honorary Fellow of Merton College, Oxford, and a Distinguished Fellow of Hillsdale College, Michigan.

Sir Gilbert has published 12 historical atlases, with a total of more than 1,000 maps, including a wide-ranging graphic history of the Second World War. He also wrote The Jerusalem Illustrated History Atlas, The Jewish History Atlas, The Arab-Israeli Conflict: Its History in Maps, Atlas of the Holocaust, and The Holocaust.

Maps Out of Cream
Fleisher asked Sir Gilbert about the root of his interest in maps. Gilbert responded:

“I remember buying a little atlas and taking it with me to school and [reading it wherever and whenever possible]…  I always used to draw maps; in those days, before Mrs. Thatcher abolished it, the schoolchildren used to receive free milk – it was 2/3 milk and 1/3 cream, and I discovered that if you poured out the milk very carefully, the cream would harden, and I would be able to fashion topographical maps out of it – with river systems and mountains and the like… particularly in the cold winter of 1947, which was one of the coldest winters we ever had. And in my essays, I would always include little maps of explanation - and the masters [teachers] would encourage me; if they hadn’t, that would have been the end of it. I would also ask people where they were from, and then I would find the places in my little atlas…

“I was also fascinated with borders; the borders in Europe were always changing during that period, and I wanted to find out why and how. We also had many Jewish refugees in school, pre-war refugees and post-war refugees, and with each wave, I would become more and more interested in the countries from whence they came.”

From the Mandate Hangings to Gordon Brown
Fleisher asked how Gilbert has dealt with the “dichotomy” of being a Jew and a Briton at the same time, especially given the strong anti-Jewish feeling in current-day Britain and during the British Mandate period.

“This is a difficult question,” Sir Gilbert said, “but one I’ve had to grapple with throughout my working life. In 1947, for example, when the news came over the radio of the discovery of the two British soldier who had been hanged [in retaliation for the British hanging of Jewish underground members – ed.], I was beaten up by my friends… not particularly savagely, though all beatings are distressing. I also had a friend who had a similar experience. So there’s always been hostility towards Jews and Israel. The other side of the coin is that there has always been those who have been tremendously friendly to Jews, Zionism and Israel. Curiously, we have this terrifying rise in anti-Semitic and anti-Israel feelings on the one hand, fueled by one or two newspapers, and on the other hand we have a prime minister, Gordon Brown, who is tremendously committed to Israel. He asked me to accompany him last year on his visit to Israel when he spoke in the Knesset. I was impressed that he was spending so much time and effort on his speech in order to get it right… We also have some Jewish ministers whose careers have not been impeded by their Jewishness…”

To hear the full interview, click here.

The Composition of the Iraq Inquiry
Sir Gilbert related a “very unpleasant experience” in this connection:  “This past August, when I was appointed to the official government inquiry regarding the war in Iraq – this Friday, in fact, we will be questioning Tony Blair in an open hearing – and two newspapers wrote that because two of the five committee members were Jewish, our judgement on the war would be influenced by the fact that Israel was in favor of the war with Iraq. Aside from the fact that back in 2003, Israel’s main enemy was Iran, and not Iraq, I didn’t see that the ethnic identity of the other members of the committee was questioned. This was just appalling… But I was gratified to see that the London Times had a leading article denouncing those who took that opinion…”
“It’s good to be a Jew and it’s good to be a Zionist, and certainly I shall continue to be both until the end of my days.”

No Comparison
Gilbert rejected the comparison between apparent Israeli willingness to capitulate to Arab demands and Chamberlain’s capitulation to Hitler before World War II – simply because he feels that Chamberlain did not merely “capitulate,” but rather sought active cooperation with Germany in carving up respective spheres of influence in Africa and elsewhere.

Jerusalem - Alive and Kicking
Fleisher noted that Gilbert has written books on Jerusalem, yet not on London, and asked, “What is special about Jerusalem for you?”

“I didn’t first research Jerusalem until 1971,” Gilbert said, “and remember regretting that I had never done it before.  Of course since then things have changed, so I’ve had the advantage of studying its evolution for 40 years. I’ve been facsinated by its history, its areas, and above all by the people of the city – many of whom have come from many parts of the world and actively chose to live here. And it’s also dynamic and changing – not like the ancient city of Rhodes where I visited with my wife a little while ago in the eastern Mediterranean, which looks just like a museum.”

Put to Good Use
Gilbert has written about an incident in Jerusalem in which the Moslems asked the Jews to pray for rain during the drought of 1902. The Moslems even offered the Jews free entry to the Temple Mount for the purpose, but the Jews declined, citing the Biblical prohibition of setting foot in prohibited areas, but asked to pray instead at King David’s Tomb. Their prayers were answered that same day with a torrential downpour. “Well, this shows that we really have an ancient connection with the city which we can sometimes put to good use,” Gilbert commented.

Privileged and Fortunate
Sir Gilbert said that he has been very privileged and lucky to have been able to work as a full-time writer and researcher since 1970: “Only since taking up this position on the Iraq inquiry have I been working from 9 to 5 every day – if I had had to do that my whole life, I would never have been able to write even half a book.  It makes Shabbat all the more an exciting day, when you can lay it all aside; yesterday I went to shul, with the Iraq inquiry weighing heavily upon me, and it was a great sense of relief… I did teach a class on the Holocaust for one year in ‘95-‘96 at the University College London, and it was very difficult. I enjoyed the teaching, but there was no way I could do my research and writing – though I did get my own revenge in a way on the University, because my pupils asked me to take them on a journey to the places I was teaching about, and I kept a diary, and then I published it when I got back, in a book called ‘Holocaust Journey’…”

Gilbert concluded by saying, “It’s good to be a Jew and it’s good to be a Zionist, and certainly I shall continue to be both until the end of my days.”