The chairman of the largest united voting bloc within the Likud Central Committee spoke about efforts to throw him out of the Likud, the problem with Israel’s national religious parties and his confidence in the Jewish people.
Feiglin spoke with Tamar Yonah and Eli Stutz during Israel National Radio’s Weekend Edition:
Tamar Yonah: There are people in the country who claim to be pro-democracy who are saying that you should not be allowed to run the next time around. Why don’t you tell us about that?
Moshe Feiglin: In Israel we have a very special kind of democracy. It is a democracy for about 7% of the population. It reminds me of the first democracy in Greece – in Athens – where there was democracy, but only for certain very small segments of the population. So we have a democracy for opinions ranging between [far-left parliamentarians] Yossi Beilin and Yossi Sarid, but not for anyone else. Not only that, but this democracy includes what I am calling a totalitarianism of ideas. This means you can go vote every four years, but it's like flipping a coin with the same thing on both sides. You have a right to flip the coin, but no choice what is on each side. That is the special kind of democracy we are living in.
Eli Stutz: So Moshe, what is the progress on those who are trying to prevent you from running to be a member of the Knesset?
MF: So far so good, they have not succeeded, thank G-d. But even if that will happen, G-d forbid, we already have a number two, a number three and a number four ready. We are at the point today when good people within the Likud who share our ideology make up at least 10% of the party. It is their strength that is making Ariel Sharon very frightened. Ehud Barak said last week that there is not any form of opposition to Sharon in the Knesset, but that Manhigut Yehudit - the ‘Feiglinites’ as he called them constitutes the only real threat to Sharon.
ES: What’s remarkable to me, Moshe, is that the Labor and Likud parties have found enough in common to form a coalition, yet the right-wing and religious camp in Israel is so split. We have so much in common, yet at the same time we just saw Effie Eitam and Yitzchak Levy leave the National Religious Party to create the Religious Zionism Party. Why is it that we are so split in the national religious camp?
MF: I will answer that question on the ideological level if you don’t mind. I think the problem with the religious Zionists, with the ‘knitted-kippot’ as they say, is that they have not had the guts to lead - to say, ‘We are the next generation of leaders of Israel.’ On the other hand, deep inside, the people of Israel are waiting for us to lead, because there is no other sector who has the abilities that we have - meaning Zionism on one hand and a real Jewish faith on the other hand - a combination of them both. When you have a tool that doesn’t serve a purpose, it disintegrates, and this is what happening to us.
TY: Moshe, I want to ask you how they can bar you from running next time for the Knesset. What are they going to charge you with in order to say you are not eligible to run?
MF: I really don’t know. They will probably try to pull something out of their sleeve. However, Manhigut Yehudit is not a movement of a person. Why do they call us the ‘Feiglinites’? Because they are trying to portray us as a bunch of people going blindly after a person. But that is not what we are at all. It is a movement of an idea, and because it is a movement like that, they cannot stop us.
TY: But if they can get you, they can get the whole party, just like they did with the Kach party. It wasn’t just Rabbi Meir Kahane that they banned, but they made his whole party illegal.
MF: Rabbi Kahane, of blessed memory, was a movement of one man. That is the difference. I hope we can not only learn from the good things he did, but also here and there, from his mistakes.
ES: We are still reeling here from the terror attack Friday night and looking for things we can do about it. Do you have any suggestions for people here?
MF: Look, we have a Chief of Staff that has already said that the disengagement will be a tail-wind for terror. And that is what we see today. As long as we give the Arabs our land, terror will always increase. The only way to stop terror is to go back to our roots, to our justice – to annex the land, to make sure that they understand and that the entire world understands that we know that this is our land, that this is our country and that whoever is going to start with us will pay a tremendous price. But when we lose our own justice, we merely whet their appetite for more and more Jewish blood because we communicate to them that they are right - that justice lies on their side.
TY: If you were the prime minister of Israel, what would be your solution to bring security and peace to Israel and to fulfill the destiny of the Jewish people here in our land?
MF: Well, first we have to understand that peace and security are not the reason why we came to this part of the Middle East – to the Land of Israel. We would have much greater peace and security in Australia, New Jersey or New Zealand. We are here to serve one purpose only: to be complete Jews. The State of Israel is a tool to serve that purpose – to enable the Jews to fulfill their mission on Earth. When we do that we will have peace and security. But if we think we came here just to run away from the gas chambers - and that is why when anyone comes to Israel we first bring him to [Holocaust museum] Yad VaShem, to show him why we are here – then we are mistaken. We are not here because we are running from the gas chambers, we are here for a positive reason. We are on a mission. Only when we understand that, will we be able to really protect ourselves. And that will be the point when we will have peace and security.
TY: But can I ask you about specific steps? What would you do now? Israel has again signed empty promises with the PLO and again they have been broken. They agree to stop the terror and then there are more attacks. How would you respond? What steps would you take?
MF: We are supplying the water, telephones, electricity, cement, medicine, food - everything to this population where the terrorist murderers come out from. Why would we do that? We make this differentiation between those who are terrorists and the rest of the population - which we cannot touch? Why? Why do we not care about your children but care so much about their children? It’s because our entire world view of values has gotten mixed up. I am telling you again, it is very easy to win that war, but the source of the problem is not a military issue, the source of the problem it is that we forgot who we are and what we are doing here.
TY: Let’s say you go in there and you turn off their electricity and water to punish them and to make them reign in their terrorists –
MF: We wouldn’t be going in at all, this is done from outside –
TY: Fine, but what happens when the world says, “Because you did this, we are going to place sanctions on Israel. We are not going to sell you parts for your airplanes or tanks, we are declaring boycotts. How would you respond to that?
MF: How did we respond to that before the Six-Day-War? How did we respond to that before the ’48 war? When you know that you are right and when you are a real leader and convince your people that you have a real war with justice behind it, people are willing to sacrifice. And the whole world can jump [in a lake]. But you can only do that when you supply a real sense of justice for the public, and you will not be able to do that without referring to their Jewish points. You must believe in the Jewish people, and when you do that they will follow you.
ES: I went on the Ministry of Defense web site and they have a map on it of the big fence they are building to supposedly protect Israelis from suicide bombers. I was looking at the route and it's been moved even further west, closer to the 1949 armistice lines – the Green Line. The reason I was looking at it was that over Shabbat I visited a town on the eastern side of this fence – the side that the government perhaps wants to relinquish and I thought to myself, ‘is this wise?’ Later, a family member told me ‘It is not wise to move to such an area that is in such doubt. This is a time of great change in Israel and you should wait and see whether it remains part of Israel or whether it will be given away.’ What would your reaction be to that type of statement, Moshe?
MF: I think the key word used is the word ‘doubt.’ Sharon is really using psychological warfare against some of the best people of Israel to put doubt in their hearts. He wants to give them the feeling that maybe they should follow his way, that his way is inevitable and the only one attached to reality. I think we are being tested today. Are we strong enough? Do we truly believe in the people of Israel, in the Land of Israel, in our Father in Heaven? Do we follow G-d, or this dictator Sharon? And this is the test that I am sure we are going to pass and I am sure we are going to be very proud to be able to tell our children and grandchildren about it in generations to come.
I can tell you on a personal note, I bought a piece of land in Kfar Darom, in Gaza. [Manhigut Yehudit Managing Director] Michael Fuah did the same. This is nothing compared to the people who actually live there. Every agricultural business in Gush Katif has put tens of thousands of dollars into his business in recent weeks because now they are planting in their hothouses to be able to deliver their produce for next winter. Each one of them is thinking today, ‘Why should I put tens of thousands of dollars that will not be given to me if I am pulled out of here?’ The test you and I are dealing with is nothing compared to what these heroes are going through. They are paying twice. They are getting bombarded with bombs and rockets on one hand and the government is destroying them on the other hand, yet they are holding strong. Because of these heroes - and these are real heroes - because of them, we, the Jewish people are going to pass the test.
We are living in a tremendous generation. We see terrible, terrible people like [Prime Minister Ariel] Sharon and [PM Sharon’s son, Likud MK] Omri [Sharon] and [Sharon advisor Dov] Weisglass on one hand, and the unbelievable faith, courage and heroism of the settlers of Gush Katif and the northern Shomron on the other hand. As a believer, I am looking toward the sky and thinking of HaShem (G-d) and I know that in their merit G-d will keep Gush Katif with us.
ES: I want to thank you for being on Israel National Radio’s Weekend Edition. May we all have the kind of faith you have.
Feiglin spoke with Tamar Yonah and Eli Stutz during Israel National Radio’s Weekend Edition:
Tamar Yonah: There are people in the country who claim to be pro-democracy who are saying that you should not be allowed to run the next time around. Why don’t you tell us about that?
Moshe Feiglin: In Israel we have a very special kind of democracy. It is a democracy for about 7% of the population. It reminds me of the first democracy in Greece – in Athens – where there was democracy, but only for certain very small segments of the population. So we have a democracy for opinions ranging between [far-left parliamentarians] Yossi Beilin and Yossi Sarid, but not for anyone else. Not only that, but this democracy includes what I am calling a totalitarianism of ideas. This means you can go vote every four years, but it's like flipping a coin with the same thing on both sides. You have a right to flip the coin, but no choice what is on each side. That is the special kind of democracy we are living in.
Eli Stutz: So Moshe, what is the progress on those who are trying to prevent you from running to be a member of the Knesset?
MF: So far so good, they have not succeeded, thank G-d. But even if that will happen, G-d forbid, we already have a number two, a number three and a number four ready. We are at the point today when good people within the Likud who share our ideology make up at least 10% of the party. It is their strength that is making Ariel Sharon very frightened. Ehud Barak said last week that there is not any form of opposition to Sharon in the Knesset, but that Manhigut Yehudit - the ‘Feiglinites’ as he called them constitutes the only real threat to Sharon.
ES: What’s remarkable to me, Moshe, is that the Labor and Likud parties have found enough in common to form a coalition, yet the right-wing and religious camp in Israel is so split. We have so much in common, yet at the same time we just saw Effie Eitam and Yitzchak Levy leave the National Religious Party to create the Religious Zionism Party. Why is it that we are so split in the national religious camp?
MF: I will answer that question on the ideological level if you don’t mind. I think the problem with the religious Zionists, with the ‘knitted-kippot’ as they say, is that they have not had the guts to lead - to say, ‘We are the next generation of leaders of Israel.’ On the other hand, deep inside, the people of Israel are waiting for us to lead, because there is no other sector who has the abilities that we have - meaning Zionism on one hand and a real Jewish faith on the other hand - a combination of them both. When you have a tool that doesn’t serve a purpose, it disintegrates, and this is what happening to us.
TY: Moshe, I want to ask you how they can bar you from running next time for the Knesset. What are they going to charge you with in order to say you are not eligible to run?
MF: I really don’t know. They will probably try to pull something out of their sleeve. However, Manhigut Yehudit is not a movement of a person. Why do they call us the ‘Feiglinites’? Because they are trying to portray us as a bunch of people going blindly after a person. But that is not what we are at all. It is a movement of an idea, and because it is a movement like that, they cannot stop us.
TY: But if they can get you, they can get the whole party, just like they did with the Kach party. It wasn’t just Rabbi Meir Kahane that they banned, but they made his whole party illegal.
MF: Rabbi Kahane, of blessed memory, was a movement of one man. That is the difference. I hope we can not only learn from the good things he did, but also here and there, from his mistakes.
ES: We are still reeling here from the terror attack Friday night and looking for things we can do about it. Do you have any suggestions for people here?
MF: Look, we have a Chief of Staff that has already said that the disengagement will be a tail-wind for terror. And that is what we see today. As long as we give the Arabs our land, terror will always increase. The only way to stop terror is to go back to our roots, to our justice – to annex the land, to make sure that they understand and that the entire world understands that we know that this is our land, that this is our country and that whoever is going to start with us will pay a tremendous price. But when we lose our own justice, we merely whet their appetite for more and more Jewish blood because we communicate to them that they are right - that justice lies on their side.
TY: If you were the prime minister of Israel, what would be your solution to bring security and peace to Israel and to fulfill the destiny of the Jewish people here in our land?
MF: Well, first we have to understand that peace and security are not the reason why we came to this part of the Middle East – to the Land of Israel. We would have much greater peace and security in Australia, New Jersey or New Zealand. We are here to serve one purpose only: to be complete Jews. The State of Israel is a tool to serve that purpose – to enable the Jews to fulfill their mission on Earth. When we do that we will have peace and security. But if we think we came here just to run away from the gas chambers - and that is why when anyone comes to Israel we first bring him to [Holocaust museum] Yad VaShem, to show him why we are here – then we are mistaken. We are not here because we are running from the gas chambers, we are here for a positive reason. We are on a mission. Only when we understand that, will we be able to really protect ourselves. And that will be the point when we will have peace and security.
TY: But can I ask you about specific steps? What would you do now? Israel has again signed empty promises with the PLO and again they have been broken. They agree to stop the terror and then there are more attacks. How would you respond? What steps would you take?
MF: We are supplying the water, telephones, electricity, cement, medicine, food - everything to this population where the terrorist murderers come out from. Why would we do that? We make this differentiation between those who are terrorists and the rest of the population - which we cannot touch? Why? Why do we not care about your children but care so much about their children? It’s because our entire world view of values has gotten mixed up. I am telling you again, it is very easy to win that war, but the source of the problem is not a military issue, the source of the problem it is that we forgot who we are and what we are doing here.
TY: Let’s say you go in there and you turn off their electricity and water to punish them and to make them reign in their terrorists –
MF: We wouldn’t be going in at all, this is done from outside –
TY: Fine, but what happens when the world says, “Because you did this, we are going to place sanctions on Israel. We are not going to sell you parts for your airplanes or tanks, we are declaring boycotts. How would you respond to that?
MF: How did we respond to that before the Six-Day-War? How did we respond to that before the ’48 war? When you know that you are right and when you are a real leader and convince your people that you have a real war with justice behind it, people are willing to sacrifice. And the whole world can jump [in a lake]. But you can only do that when you supply a real sense of justice for the public, and you will not be able to do that without referring to their Jewish points. You must believe in the Jewish people, and when you do that they will follow you.
ES: I went on the Ministry of Defense web site and they have a map on it of the big fence they are building to supposedly protect Israelis from suicide bombers. I was looking at the route and it's been moved even further west, closer to the 1949 armistice lines – the Green Line. The reason I was looking at it was that over Shabbat I visited a town on the eastern side of this fence – the side that the government perhaps wants to relinquish and I thought to myself, ‘is this wise?’ Later, a family member told me ‘It is not wise to move to such an area that is in such doubt. This is a time of great change in Israel and you should wait and see whether it remains part of Israel or whether it will be given away.’ What would your reaction be to that type of statement, Moshe?
MF: I think the key word used is the word ‘doubt.’ Sharon is really using psychological warfare against some of the best people of Israel to put doubt in their hearts. He wants to give them the feeling that maybe they should follow his way, that his way is inevitable and the only one attached to reality. I think we are being tested today. Are we strong enough? Do we truly believe in the people of Israel, in the Land of Israel, in our Father in Heaven? Do we follow G-d, or this dictator Sharon? And this is the test that I am sure we are going to pass and I am sure we are going to be very proud to be able to tell our children and grandchildren about it in generations to come.
I can tell you on a personal note, I bought a piece of land in Kfar Darom, in Gaza. [Manhigut Yehudit Managing Director] Michael Fuah did the same. This is nothing compared to the people who actually live there. Every agricultural business in Gush Katif has put tens of thousands of dollars into his business in recent weeks because now they are planting in their hothouses to be able to deliver their produce for next winter. Each one of them is thinking today, ‘Why should I put tens of thousands of dollars that will not be given to me if I am pulled out of here?’ The test you and I are dealing with is nothing compared to what these heroes are going through. They are paying twice. They are getting bombarded with bombs and rockets on one hand and the government is destroying them on the other hand, yet they are holding strong. Because of these heroes - and these are real heroes - because of them, we, the Jewish people are going to pass the test.
We are living in a tremendous generation. We see terrible, terrible people like [Prime Minister Ariel] Sharon and [PM Sharon’s son, Likud MK] Omri [Sharon] and [Sharon advisor Dov] Weisglass on one hand, and the unbelievable faith, courage and heroism of the settlers of Gush Katif and the northern Shomron on the other hand. As a believer, I am looking toward the sky and thinking of HaShem (G-d) and I know that in their merit G-d will keep Gush Katif with us.
ES: I want to thank you for being on Israel National Radio’s Weekend Edition. May we all have the kind of faith you have.