Arutz-7's Emanuel Shilo and Uzi Baruch spoke this morning with two religious-party representatives to the ongoing coalition negotiations. The hareidi United Torah Judaism party has strong complaints against the religious-Zionist National Religious Party, and Arutz-7 gave Moshe Gafni of UTJ and the NRP's Yitzchak Levy a chance to express themselves. Gafni was first asked, "What are your claims against the NRP?"
Gafni: "I have none; it is an independent party, and it can do what it wants… I don't know exactly what's going on there, but [NRP MK Sha'ul] Yahalom told me that they agreed to [something regarding] 'psulei chitun' [those who are Halakhically forbidden to marry] - and they may have changed their minds on this - but this means that they are paving the way to civil marriages in Israel, tearing the nation apart… We see that the NRP is waging negotiations on two fronts: while talking with the Likud regarding the jobs and the ministerial portfolios, it is using all its strength and not giving in at all...; and with Shinui, they are talking about religious issues, and there we see that on these important issues, they are willing to compromise. I hear how they talk: they say, for instance, "no commerce on Shabbat" in a very minor tone - but they don't say anything about legislating this, and we know that without legislation, there *will* be commerce on Shabbat. So I thought that maybe they're not talking yet about legislation. But then in the next sentence, I hear them say that they will legislate a law regarding conversion and the Ne'eman Committee, recognizing non-Orthodox conversion... It's been said before: With friends like the NRP, UTJ doesn't need enemies like Shinui.
Arutz-7: "It could be that the NRP sees the Jewish character of the State differently than you do?"
Gafni: "It could very well be, but the NRP always objected, together with us, to Basic Laws that will irreparably harm the State's Jewish character… But here, a recognition of this 'psueli chitun' business - this is a terrible blow to the Jewish character, and on this we have never disagreed until now. The NRP is leading a campaign of compromise with Shinui - but what, with Shinui we can reach a compromise? It's just that the NRP wants to get into the government at any price, and is willing to compromise on the important issues to do so."
Arutz-7: "Rabbi Gafni, it could be that there is no choice but to compromise, because otherwise Ariel Sharon will just form a secular government with Labor and Shinui?"
Gafni: "I'm on the negotiating team with the Likud, and I know for a fact that we have reached an agreement with the Likud on preserving the religious status quo. The Likud tells us that 60% of their voters are religious or traditional, and they have no interest in hurting the status quo. We have some disagreements on side issues - for us they're not just side issues, because we very much fear that any little breach can get bigger and wider - but we basically agree that the Jewish character of the State must be maintained. The only one that can cause the Likud to become secular and destabilize the Likud's traditional base is the NRP!"
Arutz-7: "It could be that the Likud is playing a double game: It's telling you one thing, but if it succeeds in forming a government with Shinui and Labor, it will do so - and therefore there may be no choice but to compromise with Shinui."
Gafni: "If the NRP is truly fearful of this scenario, then why doesn't it compromise on its demands for portfolios so that a right-wing government can quickly be formed and Shinui will be kept out? Why is it only compromising on the religious issues, and not on its other demands? It's not that they're compromising because they fear that a secular government may arise - and the proof is that they're not compromising on the jobs!"
The Arutz-7 team then spoke with Rabbi Yitzchak Levy of the NRP, asking him, "Many people do not understand what the NRP is doing. Why is the NRP making such great efforts to reach an understanding with Shinui [the two party leaders have met at least twice in the past days], when it is clear that this means no chance for a religious right-wing government?"
Levy: "First of all, we're not 'making such great efforts.' We know that the Likud is very interested in having Shinui, and they asked if we can sit and discuss some issues with Shinui, so we said we would. There is a very important goal here, and that is to rid Shinui of all its hatred for Torah and Judaism, and pull it away from its exaggerated demands, and to try to be a bridge between the religious and the secular. I told a Shas member yesterday that we're trying to pave the way for the entry of Shas into a government together with Shinui. This is our goal: not to sit with either of them individually, but to unite all of Israel."
Arutz-7: "You really think that this will pave the way for the hareidi parties - or perhaps the opposite: You'll reach an agreement with Shinui that will not satisfy the hareidim, and in addition, the Likud won't even need them any more because he'll take Labor instead!"
Levy: "We can't come to any agreements with Shinui that contradict our beliefs. I heard Gafni say that we're insisting on jobs - it's not true."
Shilo: "The Education Ministry, for instance?"
Levy: "Just that, nothing else. And for us, that's not just a job, but rather ideology. But we did not discuss any other alternatives, or the number of ministers, or anything else… We have told Shinui that regarding Halakhah [Jewish Law], we cannot compromise even a whit - not to public transportation on Shabbat, not to civil marriages… Regarding 'psulei chitun,' we told them unambiguously that whatever agreement we reach will have to be approved by the Chief Rabbinate. Shinui has not yet agreed to that, so we haven't even asked the Chief Rabbinate what its opinion is. There is a situation here that these people can't register for marriage, and so we're creating a situation that they go abroad to get married; I don't know if there is a solution that the Chief Rabbinate can agree to...
Arutz-7: "You had a meeting with some rabbis on Sunday, correct?"
Levy: "[NRP party leader] Effie Eitam met with Rabbi Chaim Druckman and with Rabbi Sh'ar Yashuv Cohen, and they gave him some ideas, but these cannot be concretized until we know what Shinui's stand is. Eitam spoke also with [former Chief] Rabbi Shapira, and others - I believe Rabbi Aviner also - and the goal is to try to find a solution for this problem that will be accepted by the rabbis; we won't do anything that the Chief Rabbinate does not accept.
Arutz-7: "But Shinui refuses to sit with Shas and UTJ, so by cooperating with Shinui, how can you think that you are paving the way for their entry into the government?"
Levy: "Why don't you leave open the possibility of change? After all, we're dealing with the Shinui [change] party, which keeps on changing its mind…"
Arutz-7: "Will you insist that you not be the only religious party in the government?"
Levy: "Certainly not. We will only insist on the essential matters -"
Arutz-7: "Which are?"
Levy: "The absolute preservation of the status quo, and of course the diplomatic issues that we have been talking about … If we can decrease the hatred and tensions between the secular and the religious, and remove them from the opposition where they will just curse and vilify us and the Torah day in and day out, and reduce their exaggerated demands, while ensuring that there's no change in civil marriages, and the number of Tal Law military exemptions [for yeshiva students], and no Shabbat public transportation, [then that's very important]. I would like to explain about conversions: We have long said that the Ne'eman Commission recommendations - which ensure that conversion must be according to Halakhah - must be legislated, in order to ensure that the conversion situation does not get worse, and our rabbis have said the same."
Arutz-7: "All your moves are governed by your fear that Sharon may form a secular government with Shinui and Labor?"
Levy: "We are very very concerned about such a possibility."
Gafni: "I have none; it is an independent party, and it can do what it wants… I don't know exactly what's going on there, but [NRP MK Sha'ul] Yahalom told me that they agreed to [something regarding] 'psulei chitun' [those who are Halakhically forbidden to marry] - and they may have changed their minds on this - but this means that they are paving the way to civil marriages in Israel, tearing the nation apart… We see that the NRP is waging negotiations on two fronts: while talking with the Likud regarding the jobs and the ministerial portfolios, it is using all its strength and not giving in at all...; and with Shinui, they are talking about religious issues, and there we see that on these important issues, they are willing to compromise. I hear how they talk: they say, for instance, "no commerce on Shabbat" in a very minor tone - but they don't say anything about legislating this, and we know that without legislation, there *will* be commerce on Shabbat. So I thought that maybe they're not talking yet about legislation. But then in the next sentence, I hear them say that they will legislate a law regarding conversion and the Ne'eman Committee, recognizing non-Orthodox conversion... It's been said before: With friends like the NRP, UTJ doesn't need enemies like Shinui.
Arutz-7: "It could be that the NRP sees the Jewish character of the State differently than you do?"
Gafni: "It could very well be, but the NRP always objected, together with us, to Basic Laws that will irreparably harm the State's Jewish character… But here, a recognition of this 'psueli chitun' business - this is a terrible blow to the Jewish character, and on this we have never disagreed until now. The NRP is leading a campaign of compromise with Shinui - but what, with Shinui we can reach a compromise? It's just that the NRP wants to get into the government at any price, and is willing to compromise on the important issues to do so."
Arutz-7: "Rabbi Gafni, it could be that there is no choice but to compromise, because otherwise Ariel Sharon will just form a secular government with Labor and Shinui?"
Gafni: "I'm on the negotiating team with the Likud, and I know for a fact that we have reached an agreement with the Likud on preserving the religious status quo. The Likud tells us that 60% of their voters are religious or traditional, and they have no interest in hurting the status quo. We have some disagreements on side issues - for us they're not just side issues, because we very much fear that any little breach can get bigger and wider - but we basically agree that the Jewish character of the State must be maintained. The only one that can cause the Likud to become secular and destabilize the Likud's traditional base is the NRP!"
Arutz-7: "It could be that the Likud is playing a double game: It's telling you one thing, but if it succeeds in forming a government with Shinui and Labor, it will do so - and therefore there may be no choice but to compromise with Shinui."
Gafni: "If the NRP is truly fearful of this scenario, then why doesn't it compromise on its demands for portfolios so that a right-wing government can quickly be formed and Shinui will be kept out? Why is it only compromising on the religious issues, and not on its other demands? It's not that they're compromising because they fear that a secular government may arise - and the proof is that they're not compromising on the jobs!"
The Arutz-7 team then spoke with Rabbi Yitzchak Levy of the NRP, asking him, "Many people do not understand what the NRP is doing. Why is the NRP making such great efforts to reach an understanding with Shinui [the two party leaders have met at least twice in the past days], when it is clear that this means no chance for a religious right-wing government?"
Levy: "First of all, we're not 'making such great efforts.' We know that the Likud is very interested in having Shinui, and they asked if we can sit and discuss some issues with Shinui, so we said we would. There is a very important goal here, and that is to rid Shinui of all its hatred for Torah and Judaism, and pull it away from its exaggerated demands, and to try to be a bridge between the religious and the secular. I told a Shas member yesterday that we're trying to pave the way for the entry of Shas into a government together with Shinui. This is our goal: not to sit with either of them individually, but to unite all of Israel."
Arutz-7: "You really think that this will pave the way for the hareidi parties - or perhaps the opposite: You'll reach an agreement with Shinui that will not satisfy the hareidim, and in addition, the Likud won't even need them any more because he'll take Labor instead!"
Levy: "We can't come to any agreements with Shinui that contradict our beliefs. I heard Gafni say that we're insisting on jobs - it's not true."
Shilo: "The Education Ministry, for instance?"
Levy: "Just that, nothing else. And for us, that's not just a job, but rather ideology. But we did not discuss any other alternatives, or the number of ministers, or anything else… We have told Shinui that regarding Halakhah [Jewish Law], we cannot compromise even a whit - not to public transportation on Shabbat, not to civil marriages… Regarding 'psulei chitun,' we told them unambiguously that whatever agreement we reach will have to be approved by the Chief Rabbinate. Shinui has not yet agreed to that, so we haven't even asked the Chief Rabbinate what its opinion is. There is a situation here that these people can't register for marriage, and so we're creating a situation that they go abroad to get married; I don't know if there is a solution that the Chief Rabbinate can agree to...
Arutz-7: "You had a meeting with some rabbis on Sunday, correct?"
Levy: "[NRP party leader] Effie Eitam met with Rabbi Chaim Druckman and with Rabbi Sh'ar Yashuv Cohen, and they gave him some ideas, but these cannot be concretized until we know what Shinui's stand is. Eitam spoke also with [former Chief] Rabbi Shapira, and others - I believe Rabbi Aviner also - and the goal is to try to find a solution for this problem that will be accepted by the rabbis; we won't do anything that the Chief Rabbinate does not accept.
Arutz-7: "But Shinui refuses to sit with Shas and UTJ, so by cooperating with Shinui, how can you think that you are paving the way for their entry into the government?"
Levy: "Why don't you leave open the possibility of change? After all, we're dealing with the Shinui [change] party, which keeps on changing its mind…"
Arutz-7: "Will you insist that you not be the only religious party in the government?"
Levy: "Certainly not. We will only insist on the essential matters -"
Arutz-7: "Which are?"
Levy: "The absolute preservation of the status quo, and of course the diplomatic issues that we have been talking about … If we can decrease the hatred and tensions between the secular and the religious, and remove them from the opposition where they will just curse and vilify us and the Torah day in and day out, and reduce their exaggerated demands, while ensuring that there's no change in civil marriages, and the number of Tal Law military exemptions [for yeshiva students], and no Shabbat public transportation, [then that's very important]. I would like to explain about conversions: We have long said that the Ne'eman Commission recommendations - which ensure that conversion must be according to Halakhah - must be legislated, in order to ensure that the conversion situation does not get worse, and our rabbis have said the same."
Arutz-7: "All your moves are governed by your fear that Sharon may form a secular government with Shinui and Labor?"
Levy: "We are very very concerned about such a possibility."