Olam Katan, the most widely read religious weekly Hebrew magazine in Israel is distributed in hesder yeshivas, mechinot, midrashot and religious high schools as well as in most Israeli synagogues. In response to questions in the religious Zionist sector on the subject of Israel's elections, the magazine featured an extensive interview with Religious Zionist leader Rabbi Zalman Baruch Melamed, founder of Beit El and dean of its renowned yeshiva. Rabbi Melamed was part of the select cadre of yeshiva students who were close to the iconic Religious Zionist leader HaRav Tzvi Yehuda Kook (called "the father of the settlement movement") and is the spiritual mentor of Arutz Sheva. Interview translated by Rochel Sylvetsky.
Rabbi Zalman Baruch Melamed does not like the slight impression of surprise on our interviewer's face when when he says he supports Naftali Bennett and the Jewish Home Party in the aftermath of MKs Eli Yishai and Yoni Chetboun's breaking away from Shas and Jewish Home respectively to form the Yachad party.
Rabbi Melamed is one of the leading rabbis of the haredi-nationalist Tekuma faction of the Jewish Home party and defines himself as haredi-nationalist (chardal). Among his many accomplishments, he is a founder of the Ariel youth movement that has gender separation, differing with Bnei Akiva on that issue. However, he believes that Religious Zionists must strive for the widest possible political umbrella and that those who worry about the possible resulting loss of Religious Zionist identity in the Jewish Home party are evincing a lack of self confidence.
The source of the differences of opinion in Religious Zionist circles, he feels, is the confusion about the various forms of leadership that the Jewish people need.
"Except for unusual instances such as King David and Moses, our leadership was always divided at least into two functions – the spiritual leadership epitomized by the Sanhedrin or prophet, and the monarchy which controlled the political realm. Politicians are not spiritual or social leaders, they are the people's representatives in the Knesset where laws are passed and the country is led in practice.
"Whether or not they are stringently religious, just as long as they strengthen the image of the country as the Jewish State and enhance the ability to keep the Torah's commandments and study the Torah, build the land and encourage the feeling of Jewish solidarity – we must stand behind them."
Do you mean that the controversy is really about expecting spiritual leadership from political leaders?
We certainly expect our party head to be an outstanding and honest man of integrity, but that does not make him a spiritual leader. Someone who is head of a yeshiva is not necessarily someone who should be a political figure. Someone who is a good politician is usually not suitable for the position of yeshiva dean. Our Sages said that from the time of Moses until Rabbi Yehuda Hanassi (who wrote down the Mishna, ca.200 C.E., ed.) there was no instance when Torah and leadership were in one person – It is natural that different people have different strengths.
What is the relationship between the political and spiritual leaders, how much authority does the political leader have?
"I see the political leader as a messenger. He must do the will of those who sent him. He must evaluate each situation and see if he can carry out things within the parameters that define his party's ethos. The bottom line is that he is a representative. If he forgets that, we will forget him. Obviously, there are fields that politicians understand better than rabbis, but there are fields that require rabbis, for example, the ethical side to halakha [when passing laws]. It is not just the connection between religion and state; Judaism also teaches about man and his fellow man, not only man and God. If the general feeling is that the leader acts within the framework of these principles, he must be allowed as many degrees of freedom as he needs."
Do you feel that Naftali Bennett is that kind of leader?
"I absolutely think that has been the case up to now. Beyond his proclamations, which have their own importance, I have concluded after many conversations with him, that when it comes to questions of religion and state, he definitely listens to the advice of leading rabbis who have formed an advisory group that meets with him, and carries out their guidance when it comes to those issues".
It did not work so well at first, did it - for example in choosing the new Chief Rabbi [where both Haredi candidates were elected]?
"Bennett admitted that he erred in that case and regrets it. He did not understand the situation at that time, it was early days. It is nice to hear someone realize he has made a mistake and is learning how to avoid doing so in the future".
Does the Rabbi agree with Bennett's plans to lead the state of Israel?
"First of all, one must note that leading the nation has many facets – our head of state must face world leaders with assurance. I don't see anyone who can do that better [than Bennett], and present the view that Israel belongs to the Jewish people - and the Jewish people to Israel - going beyond the security aspects of the issue. He has explained this - for the first time - to kings, non Jews, ministers, and in the best possible way."
But we are not only concerned about foreign affairs. How will he manage with regard to anti-religious legislation?
"In contrast to all the rumors that people spread, Bennett managed to block everything that the rabbis told him to. There was one mistake in the surrogate pregnancy law because the information the rabbis received was inaccurate and the rabbinic forum discussed how to allow surrogate pregnancy within the framework of halakha. Two days later we discovered that the whole point of the law was to allow same sex couples to become parents. And when we all realized this, they managed to correct that mistake."
There are claims that these consultations with rabbis are just for cover, and that afterwards the Jewish Home MK's do as they please.
"That is false and malicious slander. I want to state emphatically that not only do we see the results of the consultations in practice, we also see that there is sincere willingness to carry out the rabbis' directions. And anyone who knows me, also knows that I am far from naïve."
Rabbi Melamed describes how the forum of elders of the Religious Zionist rabbinate formed during the recent Knesset, and that the group that originally included Rabbi Lichtenstein and Rabbi Lior is now made up of seven rabbis – Rabbis Druckman, Drori, Ariel, Rabinowitz, Shteiner, Klonsky and of course, Rabbi Melamed. Rabbi Lichtenstein left the forum due to ill health, while Rabbi Lior went over to the Yachad party. There are plans to create forums of younger rabbis.
It seems that the forum does not wait for questions to be posed by Jewish Home MK's, but meets on its own initiative to discuss issues - which the rabbi preferred not to disclose at this time. At the end of each meeting, a position paper is formulated and sent for legal review before being used to advance legislation on the subject at hand.
Rabbi Melamed does say that the struggle to restore independence to the religious schools is a central topic, since that educational independence was greatly damaged during the present Knesset term due to Education Minister Piron (Yesh Atid).
"The public is not sufficiently aware of the terribly dangerous plans he did not have time to put into practice, such as establishing a higher Educational Authority that would be above the Knesset, on the lines of the academic world's Higher Educational Authority.
The syllabuses would then be dictated to schools and lead to a real chasm between the state and its religious citizens. We have formulated a serious plan of action for the next Knesset on this," he explains.
What about Rabbi Mazuz who is the Yachad party's rabbinic mentor and although not a product of religious Zionist yeshivas, is certainly considered religious Zionist and nationalist?
"There have been meetings with Rabbi Mazuz at various times in the past and while it is not possible to include him at present, that is part of the general direction we intend to take."
Should religious Zionists concentrate on keeping the country's existing Judaism-related laws intact (known as the "status quo")?
"One must constantly keep track of how, in the light of changing circumstances, we can manage to reach the optimum results with regard to the Jewish people's attachment to the Torah. True, we must guard what already has been achieved, but not let that prevent us from aspiring to more, to what we feel is the fitting goal for the Jewish people.
"One example is the alternative definitions for marriage partners. Now everyone has woken up to the need to fight it, but the topic has been moving ahead in the Knesset for the last 20 years, while the haredi parties were in the coalition and allowed it to happen. All that is left is to call them 'married', the rest has already been passed into law. Now that the religious Zionists are stronger, we are pushing in the other direction.
"We must not be only on the defensive and try to preserve the 'status quo', we must take the initiative. The Jewish State Law was a good example - it is of prime importance that this country be defined as a Jewish state because ideas of unfettered democracy are eroding that concept bit by bit. This is a good period to bring up this concept - despite all the talk of 'rights', our population is becoming more and more traditional and attached to Judaism. Grades 1-3 have a majority of religious pupils, not just because of the higher birthrate in religious families, but because people want that education.There is a different atmosphere, and even on the streets of Tel Aviv, there is a thirst for Judaism and a desire to know Torah.
"Another example that needs proactive legislation is free speech. Our rabbis today cannot say anything that the 'guardians' of democracy view as 'racist', meaning that Torah views are often limited to saying that the Torah once said something rather than stating that 'this is the Torah way' - for example, that same sex partners are an abomination from which we must distance ourselves - saying that is panned. The situation is the same with regard to the Arabs. Our wrists are shackled. "
What comes first, legislation or spiritual statements even at the risk of an indictment?
"Rabbis have to fight on all fronts and teach the Torah way, but not sacrifice themselves if there is no chance of success. We have to do the things that lead to optimal results."
Why was some of the Torah world against the Jewish Home party?
"As I said above, some people confused the two kinds of necessary leadership. But others do not remember that Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda Kook zts"l taught us not to fear - not to fear expanding our ranks. I told Naftali you can try to expand our support base, as long as you do it in both directions. We have to be as large as possible. We have to be the cord connecting the haredim, the traditional Israelis, the Religious Zionists and get them all under one umbrella that has one common goal - that this country be a Jewish state with a unique Jewish spirit."
But that comes with a price.
At this point, Rabbi Melamed's usual gentle, nuanced tone becomes more heated:
"There is a basic principle: we want geula, redemption of our people, and a people includes many opinions. A price? Being a nation bears a heavy price too. The more we grow, the more opinions there are. Do we want to be a nation or not? A yes answer means we learn to live with all these opinions. Even when the entire nation keeps the mitzvot, there will be varying degrees of observance. It cannot be otherwise. That is how God created the world."
Did the rabbi feel that way about the Eli Ohana episode [when Bennett tried to put a famous soccer player on the party list]?
"When I first heard about it, I sent a message that I thought it was a mistake that could lead to people not voting for the Jewish Home party. Many in both the religious and secular public reacted that way. The feeling was that our principles are being blurred and that a soccer player who is not a figure representing leadership or educational values is being put on the party list. Afterwards, I realized that there were other sides to the story, but no one had explained them, unfortunately. Hundreds of thousands of soccer fans see Ohana as a positive, decent and ethical person, and we would have grown in size tremendously without compromising our principles. My wife took a taxi that week and the driver spent the whole trip telling her that he and thousands of others would have left the Likud for the Jewish Home party. Had these things been explained beforehand, we would have reacted differently. Naftali made a big mistake by not preparing his voters for this move.
"On the other hand, with or without Eli Ohana, our rabbis can decide something by a majority, and our public will still not be able to accept it, nor can the haredim. We talk about redemption, but everyone wants to preserve his own particular identity. We will have no choice but to change this."
Do you mean that we can dilute your ideological message?
"Unity does not dilute one's personal views. Some things might be more difficult to handle, but one's independent thoughts are unaffected. I am not afraid of all the sectors I mentioned joining us. We do not differ on everything. The haredim agree with us on observance of the four volumes of the Code of Jewish Law, but differ on some interpretations. We can agree to differ on those and find the things we have in common. We have had meetings of rabbis that inluded the most liberal Orthodox rabbis and they too wish to serve God and believe in observing the Code of Jewish Law.
"Many haredi rabbis still have fears that were extant in the Diaspora, while we have moved from fear to love. After all, there has never been as much Torah learning as there is in Israel today and Jews are coming here from all over the world."
So what is wrong if some of the Religious Zionists join the haredim? We have a lot in common.
"First, we have to unify our own ranks, we have so much in common with one another, and then add other sectors. What is the use of unity between Religious Zionists and haredim, as in the Yachad party, if its origin is a breakaway group, exactly the opposite of unity? The Yachad rabbis came and showed me a video of anti-religious legislation that is being planned for the next Knesset. I asked them if it was enough for them to create the video on the subject, because they won't have enough clout to do anything about it.
"Our Sages taught that the verse 'five of you will overtake one hundred [of the enemy] and one hundred of will overpower ten thousand' means that you can have a 1:20 overpowering ratio with five fighters or a 1:1000 ratio if you have 100 fighters. I want to overpower 1000 so I want more fighters. A large party can accomplish so much more than a small one."