Strategic Affairs Minister Ron Dermer on Tuesday gave an interview to Sky News in which pointed out that Hamas is committing a double war crime by targeting Israeli civilians and also by using civilians in Gaza as human shields.
The interviewer, Sophy Ridge, pressed Dermer on the civilian death toll in Gaza, noting Hamas claims 10,000 have died. Dermer said he could not confirm that number and could not provide an assessment of his own, but noted that Israel has killed 3,000 Hamas terrorists since the start of the war.
Ridge then asked Dermer if he is comfortable with that ratio of terrorists to civilians dying, to which the minister replied, “First of all, I don't even know what that means. I don't know what that means with a ratio. Eight million Germans died in World War II and 400,000 Americans did. I don't know how many Brits did, but that means 20 times as many Germans died as Americans - does that mean that somehow the Nazis were right and the Americans were wrong?”
“That has nothing to do with the laws of war and it has nothing to do with proportionality,” added Dermer, who stressed, “I'm not comfortable with any civilian being killed, but I'll tell you: What I'm even less comfortable with [is] that we have on our border a terror organization that seeks the destruction of Israel and what they did on October 7th has to be answered by Israel, because it's not just a threat to Israel. It is a threat to all of civilization.”
“We cannot allow such an act of barbarism to go unanswered and we cannot give them immunity with the use of human shields, because what happens is they use the human shields to try to turn public opinion against Israel because they're hoping that you're going to focus all the time on the civilians.”
Dermer continued, “I don't have a problem with you focusing on the civilians because I think it's a tragedy, but the blame for that tragedy should put be put squarely at the feet of a terror organization like Hamas.”
To the question of who he sees governing Gaza after the war, Dermer replied, “Well, I think it'll be the Palestinians that are going to govern Gaza. Who those Palestinians will be I don't know. I know who they're not going to be: It's not going to be Hamas. We're going to have to wipe out and eliminate, as I said, not only Hamas’ military infrastructure but end their rule of Gaza, and hopefully the Palestinians eventually will be able to choose a leadership that is committed to peaceful coexistence with Israel and not one that is determined to destroy Israel and that also teaches their children to live at peace with Israel and doesn't demonize Jews and demonize Israel.”
Ridge asked Dermer whether he believes there should be a state of Palestine, to which he responded, “The question of a state is, and the Prime Minister has said it many times, he says the Palestinians should have all the powers to govern themselves but none of the powers that could threaten Israel.”
“When you talk about a state, you have to deal with certain powers. Do they have an army? Do we want Palestinians to have an army that could threaten Israel? Do they control the airspace? Do they control the borders? Can they make military packs with other countries like Iran?”
When Ridge asserted that she did not understand Dermer’s answer, he fired back, “It's because you want a yes or no answer, but it's not a yes or no answer, because there are certain limits on sovereignty that has to be put in place, because Israel faces unique security threats that no other country faces.”
“When I speak to people and I say, ‘Well, [are] you for a two-state solution?’ Most people are. Then I ask them, ‘Wait a second. Do you believe that the Palestinians should have an army?’ No, they don't think that.”
Dermer agreed with Ridge’s comment that both the US and the UK believe in a two-state solution but added, “I think they also are very clear about the restrictions that have to be placed on the certain sovereign powers of the Palestinian state that they support, that would not endanger Israel, and I think the formula we have to get in substance is one that will give them all the powers that they need for self-determination to govern their own lives.”
“Israel,” he stressed, “doesn't want to govern them but none of the powers that can be used to threaten Israel, and that's a serious problem, and it requires a serious discussion to figure out how you achieve that outcome.”
On the issue of anti-Israel protests taking place in Britain, Dermer said those protesters do not believe that Israel has the right to exist. When Ridge said she thinks most of the protesters would disagree with Dermer’s assertion, he replied, “Then send a reporter to ask them what they think about Israel. See if a single one will say ‘yes, we support Israel's right to exist’ because that's not what I see.”
“Those people, when they say ‘free Palestine from the river to the sea,’ that's a call for genocide, for the destruction of a state and genocide against the Jewish people…the birth of Israel gave the Jewish people the power to fight back. That's what's changed. It hasn't ended hatred towards the Jews but it has given us the power to fight back.”
“When you have people going with signs that say ‘Palestine from the river to the sea’, that is incitement to genocide, which is a war crime and it should not be tolerated even if it goes in your higher educational systems or any other parts of Britain. It's wrong and it should be condemned forthrightly, and I think that your current government is doing that and I appreciate it,” added Dermer.