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AddReply(341895,"Censorship continues \"without\" Fishman.","sk","USA","09/11/08","YG, Howard, Daniel:  while Gordon has agreed to create an official, visible, objective set of rules for censorship, it\'s pretty obvious that he\'s dragging his feet, hoping this will pass.  Similarly, he did not remove Fish from the group of censors, despite Fish\'s atrocious performance, hoping that this too would pass.  NO objective censorship standard would ever support Fish\'s shenanigans.\n\nNote, however, that if rabbis are protected in this standard, AND THIS IS ENFORCED (it is now unofficially enforced, hit and miss), crooked black hats will be even more protected than they are now.\n\nOf course, the censor COULD be Fishman, as he works outside of his own blog, and now his blog is \"on sabbatical,\" leaving plenty of time.\n\nBut what about the continued censorship?  As some know, Ted Belman writes a semi-regular column for A7.  Belman called me a liar for saying that he supported the Expulsion; he now pretends that he never did so.  But as I discuss on Mike\'s blog and on my own in more detail (my.opera.com/skZion), Belman did as I said he did, and we cannot allow media pundits to play fast and loose with history.  Each of us leaves a track of opinions, and we are responsible for the effects of these opinions.\n\nBelman was part of the massive defection from the pro-settler camp by, among others, the J Post\'s Bret Stephens (who used to answer my emails with interesting points and now ignores them), continued by the appalling Horovitz and his bunch of cronies.  Part of this defection involved creating a vast disinformation campaign and a fog of confusion.\n\nWell, I say Israelis will have a memory even if I have to help provide one.  But someone on A7 does not want Israelis to have a memory--that person is deleting my TBs to Belman.\n\nAnd no:  I am not violating the uofficial standards mentioned by Klein from Gordon.\n\nRemember that this is mostly an \"Israeli\" news source, not a Jewish one.  Integrity and truth do not matter.");
AddReply(340209,"Regarding censorship - which are the rules?  Just want to know.","Howard ","","09/04/08","");
AddReply(339998,"To Klein re: censorship","Daniel","Kyoto","09/04/08","Could you please seriously address the complaints brought up by several people here regarding censorship on this blog? Why was Mike\'s talkback censored, for example?");
AddReply(339981,"to 16","Yitzhak Klein","Maale Adumim","09/04/08"," have been \"silent\" because a bug is keeping me from posting-dunno why.\nBut there ARE software messups.  As I wrote in the blog, my hands  never, ever touch a talkback.  I asked Gordon whether his team has been editing my TBs and he\'ll get back to me.  I repeat, I won\'t interfere in the official policy Gordon mentioned, and which I summarized above.  Other than that I have a dilemma:  Should I start asking them to send me blogs they\'ve \"bounced,\" so I can review them?  Isn\'t that de facto censorship by Klein?");
AddReply(339001,"To Dr.Klein re #9 -- cute response, but ...","YG","DC","09/01/08","... bottom line, where do things stand? Both Mike and the Colonel claim to have submitted TBs that were never posted. In your #5 you state your policy as allowing \"free discussion ... within broad limits of good taste and the site\'s official policy.\"\n \nSo ... did their TBs violate those limits? or that policy? Or were they just never received at A7 due to some malfunction? (I have observed that there were times my submissions to the Fishman blog didn\'t get posted but I realized that it was a browser problem on my end.)\n \nIf the TBs never reached you, are you inviting Mike and the Colonel to submit them again? If they are in some sort of violation of policy, are you offering them an opportunity to resubmit, or work out the differences by email?\n \nIt\'s hard for those of us who would like to see (and might even contribute to) lively discussion here, when the response to a pair of complaints like this is essentially silence from your end. \n \nDon\'t get me wrong - I did appreciate the humor in your #9. But I hardly think it\'s enough to defuse this situation and bring these interesting and controversial TBers back to your blog.");
AddReply(338805,"The Fishman wars:  Gordon flunks!","sk","USA","09/01/08","I sent a private email, the core of it I reproduce below.\n\n---------\n\nWill Gordon show himself to have real integrity and a real belief in freedom?  Or will he show himself to be a danger to freedom?  How else can we know without posing the question in a concrete manner?\n\nMy guess is that he will flunk.  My hypothesis is that Israeli society is so corrupting that integrity is eroded when any power is gained.  We know about those who gain great power.  The question is the threshold.\n\n-----------\n\nNow turn Fishman\'s blog, most recent entry, TB 24, from the INN Editor.  \n\nNotice that Gordon says, \"We thank you for you feedback and remind readers that the opinions of bloggers do not speak for the management of A7.\"\n\nSpoken like a doctrinally pure Leftist.  It is true, of course, that the opinions of bloggers are their own.  But Fishman\'s general \"opinions\" are not the issue.  The real issue is censorship policy, and THAT is indeed reflected in concrete actions of censorship in any news source.\n\nFishman thus wears two hats:  a blogger hat and a censor hat.  Wearing the latter, he censors not only here but elsewhere at INN.  Most bloggers do not wear this second hat.  And, wearing THAT hat, Fishman does indeed \"speak\" for the editor.  As I have shown, he regularly violates what Gordon claims is the censorship policy at INN.  That policy does not include a ban on \"blashphemous\" TBs, or those that are critical of Israeli practice or of Aliyah at this time.  Nor does this policy support changing the meaning of TBs while maintaining the name of the poster.\n\nSo if we get beyond the Israeli-style doublespeak, what else is Gordon saying?  Let\'s see.\n\n\"He has a vast readership, the great majority of whom are very appreciative of his dedication to Am Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael.\"\n\nMaybe or maybe not.  As we now know that the editor is \"Israeli,\" we can no more believe him than the editors of Haaretz or Ynet.  But let\'s say that Gordon is being truthful.  What he is saying then is that an unseen majority agree with Fishman, and that is supposed to mean something.  And if, say, a majority of Israelis agree to kick Jews out of Gaza?  What about a majority of Haaretz readers who agree on censoring any TB that suggests that \"Palestinians\" are not a people?\n\nIn fact, Gordon wrote a letter to the Haaretz editorial board to protest censorship on this basis:\n\n\"However, your last criteria for deletion of a comment was puzzling: \"Use of the phrase: \'There are no Palestinians\' or derivatives thereof.\" Such statements are beyond the pale of openness of dialogue, according to your editorial policy.\"\n\nBut does anyone think that this policy of deleting these TBs at Haaretz is AGAINST the wishes of the majority of active readers of the site?  Please!  And if Haaretz started getting pro-settler, you think its readers wouldn\'t get really, really pissed off?  Evidently, then, Gordon objects to censorship when he wants the censored opinions printed, but he embraces censorship when he wants opinions censored.  He demands one standard for Haaretz but implements quite a different one for INN.");
AddReply(338602,"To #8","Malka","upstate NY","09/01/08","Yep. I\'m with you. A lost reader.\n\nI dunno...either they slow in posting the t/bs because they analyzing them or outright banning the comments.\n\nIf it\'s the later it could cost them readers and financial contributors.");
AddReply(338541,"Props to SK","Malka","Upstate NY","08/31/08","I typically just leave a comment and click and leave but I do have to give due credit for his response to the editorial policy/censorship issue.\n\n\nVery insightful, Sk. \n\n\n(My previous comment on the censorship issue hasn\'t been published yet. I wonder if it will be?)");
AddReply(338507,"Editorial Policy to Censorship?","Malka","Upstate NY","08/31/08","As working journalist in the US I am curious about Mr. Gordon\'s use of the word censorship. The Committee to Protect Journalists describes censorship as being \"officially banned\" or copies of newspapers being confiscated; reporters attacked or imprisoned; buildings raided.\n\nI hope Mr. Gordon actually meant that Arutz Sheva has an editorial policy and is not being forced (censored) by the government or anyone else to alter their news content or t/b content.\n\nI understand the stance against Christian missionary comments, abuse of talmidei chachmim I have questions about. Is criticism of their views the same as \"abuse\"?\n\nNo use of the term Nazis--can we still describe terrorists as modern day Nazis?\n\nViolence against political figures I agree with entirely.\n\nThat said, again, I hope that A7 staff isn\'t being compelled to alter criticism of political leaders under a threat of imprisonment or interrogation if they do.\n\nJournalists in Russia face arrest for criticizing Vladmir Putin.\n\nI just pray journalism in Israel isn\'t heading down that road.\n\n\nBy all means, please publish your editorial policy and clarifiy these issues.\n\nDoes the censorship/editorial policy apply to only talk backs or is it effecting straight news reporting?\n\nThere\'s a difference. Huge difference.");
AddReply(337769,"censorship...","Rob","usa","08/29/08","You mean I can\'t say \"hang them from lamp post\'s\" any more?");
AddReply(337278," hey Mike, if Hashem sent in a blog ","satch","UK","08/27/08"," do yor reckon it would get censored?   Serious stuff that prevokes a person to think--might be too heavy on the reader and needs censoring.   I get kinda mouthy at times but am onesided in feelings that all sects of Jews Hebrew speaking, and Juda bloods should have complete control of the origional land that G-d decreed to them.  Bush can\'t control his own problems so why listen to Any looser?    [man presumeably]");
AddReply(337163,"to Ben Leizer","Yitzhak Klein","Maale Adumim","08/27/08","Now, admitting to thinking the talkbacker is better than the blogger--that could get you thrown off the site!  :-)");
AddReply(336845,"You lost this reader","Dr.Dovid Ben Leizer","Novi Mich USA","08/26/08","My t/b was also not published. If loosing Jewish readers is what you want, so be it. I cannot even imagine why it was not published, so good by and good luck.\n\nDr.Dovid Ben Leizer Hakohain\nLt.Col.Ret.\nNovi Michigan USA");
AddReply(336793,"I\'m happy to comply, Yitzhak.","sk","USA","08/26/08","I think Mike\'s #2 is telling, though.  Whoever the censor was, please knock it off, if you have any integrity.\n\nIf you don\'t have any, know that it\'s pretty simple to identify who you are by the date/time of the posted TB.  All someone needs to do is send an email with the deleted TB to the sublime Baruch Gordon.\n\nSo, playing fair is in everyone\'s practical interest, in addition to being more Jewish.");
AddReply(336763,"Fishman, Klein Et Al","Larry","(TA)","08/26/08","What Tsvi\'s actions have shown is that there is indeed censorship. Fish is a trickster who blocks posts for purely vendetta-ish reasons, as SK wrote, and then posts the original post with the \'I\'ve been banned\' followup to make the poster look foolish. The issue of censorship in general and what Fish does are connected but not the same issues. There should be limitations - no calls for murder, etc. - but this is a difficult topic. In some ways letting Mike call for the slaughter of the \'Israelis\' is harmless. Every reader here knows his position. I\'m sure the Shabak knows his position, but Mike is not going to slaughter any \'evil\' Israelis in Vienna, so....\n\nTo me, the danger is when censorship starts to expand. If A Sheva were to apply the unofficial rules that apply to the Yitzhak Rabin Personality (Cargo) Cult, then it would have to build dossiers. For within Israel Rabin has indeed been sanctified, and worshipping the site of his murder is a state function, in which Israelis and foreigners are symbolically doused in the patina of \'holy\' Labor Zionism. So, while A Sheva does not (obviously) concur with these policies, it sits in the shadow of an establishment that does have a noted tendency to \'Amirize\' any free expression about this cult. And censorship is practiced \'unofficially\' in Israeli media on this subject and related ones. \n\nAll of this reflects the fact that Israel is still struggling to leave political adolescence, and that the Israeli elites remain frightened of the hidden power of the \'national\' camp. I would prefer that nationalists appreciate the compliment in this, and seek intelligent ways to counter the censorship. The most effective ways of all would involve intelligent attempts to influence public opinion, and real reform of the political and judicial system. Too often, posters here bewail the legendary power of the elites, and thus raise that power and its impact. This need not be.\n\nAs for the prediction about Barghouti, I too suspect that Ehud would be glad to do this, especially if it creates problems for a future Bibi Netanyahu regime.");
AddReply(336648,"Talkbacks regarding Mr Fishman","Yitzhak Klein","Maale Adumim","08/26/08","To make clear my position:  I hold no brief for or against Mr Fishman, and his treatment of talckback is his own affair.  My policy is to allow free discussion here within broad limits of good taste and the site\'s official  policy.  If people wish to use this blog to conduct a discussion of Mr Fishman I prefer not to interfere.  \n\nI request, as a courtesy, two things:  1.  If one has comments relating to Mr Fishman, segregate them in a separate post.  2.  Identify these posts; say, put the word \"Fishman\" in the title.  That way people who are interested in discussing Klein but not Fishman can steer clear.");
AddReply(336637,"now now sk, don\'t be a \"heretic\" and deny the \'leftist faith\'","Velvel","silver spring","08/26/08","Don\'t be silly sk, peres and leftist loons like him have faith in abstract notion of \"peace\" and all sorts of \'peace messiahs.\'   if it wasn\'t arafat, or abbas, or if barghouti won\'t work, some arab man will come and fill their void of the true peace messiah they envision.   this involves signing pieces of  paper and smiles.   And also saying how much the peace messiah loves jews and that arabs and jews are cousins etc  - even if it\'s pretend.   Arafat was their guy but he started a war so it was pretty obvious he couldnt pretend real well.   They NEED the pretending.   That\'s part of the peace messiah-ship.  ");
AddReply(336570,"To #1 SK","Dr.Dovid Ben Leizer","Novi Mich USA","08/26/08","This was a great t/b. I actually enjoyed it more than the blog.\nKeep up the good work.\nI believe that Mr. Fishmans censor-\nship is religiously motivated, while Mr. Gordons is politically motivated,\nand political censorship is the madness of Tyrant want to be\'s.\n\nChazak Ve-Ematz to all\nDr.Dovid Ben Leizer Hakohain\nLt.Col.Ret.\nNovi Michigan USA\n\nP.S. Even Liad and his hatefull and disgusting t/bs should be welcome. We are all adults and can handle any controversy. Sk you have proved it many times.\n    \n");
AddReply(336544,"I see my comment was not published","Mike","Vienna, VA","08/26/08","So much for your so-called editorial policy!\n\nWhy don\'t you people simply admit your real policy: \"A7 censors anyone who asks tough questions and dares to point out that its emperor is naked\".");
AddReply(336486,"Comments on both parts of this blog.","sk","USA","08/25/08","Regarding the first part, Barghouti, your prediction about his soon-to-be-Messiah status is almost certainly right on.  Yet I wonder about the suggestion that the Israeli elite must believe in a Fakestinian Messiah because they have nothing else (e.g. God) to believe in.  There plenty of non-Orthodox Jews who do not consider Hashem to be particularly central in their lives.  Most of the founders of modern Israel fit into that camp.  And yet, the \"peace process\" has become increasingly bizarre as a \"calling\" over time.  Why is it then that the same absence of religious belief has been accompanied by very different degrees of peace processing?  Keep in mind that since the weakening and fall of the Soviet Union, the US has INCREASED efforts to get Israel to kowtow to the Fakestinians, even though geopolitical considerations regarding the Soviet Union have receded.  (The recent Russian efforts notwithstanding, there is no Communist superpower that can saber-rattle if Israel takes more land.)\n\nYet there is a simple explanation for elite \"craziness,\" and that is that these elites actually want the Arabs to kill Jews--preferably those in the settlements.  They desperately want some way of maintaining their power, even if this way entails some risk.  This is not a fantastic way of viewing the evidence.  After all, Israel has always been run by a fairly insular elite.  Previously, the elite came from the moshav & kibbutz.  It\'s not as if Israel ever had a political system that was open to the \"wrong people.\"\n\nTo put my case in a nutshell, we can view the elite ideology not as stupidity or ignorance or a response to a vacuum of faith, but rather from a functional perspective:  what does the ideology DO?  Once we view it this way, we also see why the elites are dependent on the US, the UN, and the Euros, as these entities help supply and reinforce a narrative justifying peace processing.  No doubt some of the dumb leftists actually believe in this garbage, but can anyone really think that the very smartest of the elites do?  In addition, by keeping Israel in a perpetual state of war, important reforms are stalled.  Orwell would be proud.\n\nRegarding part 2, censorship, I appreciate your willingness to bring the matter up with Gordon.  Of course, I disagree with any protection for Talmidei Chachamim.  I had to look that term up.  It seems, though, that one must wear nice shoes and avoid talking to one\'s wife in public if he is to be TC.  So, I\'m not sure how many Jews would qualify.  Still, I found some interesting Wikipedia passages, apparently drawn from The Jewish Encyclopedia.\n\n\"The Talmid Chacham was expected to be familiar with all branches of Torah study, and even all branches of general human learning. \"He who understands astronomy,\" says Rabbi Yochanan, \"and does not pursue the study of it, of that man it is written: \'But they regard not the work of the Lord, neither consider the operation of His hands\'\" (Isaiah). Rabbi Yochanan also says that only someone able to answer all Halakhic questions, even those which deal only with the insignificant treatise Kallah, is a Talmid Chacham worthy to be appointed leader of a community (Talmud, tr. Shabbat). In accordance with this view, some later rabbinical authorities assert that in modern times no one deserves to be called by this epithet.\"\n\n\"The principles with which the Talmid Chacham must live are enumerated in the first chapter of the work Derekh Eretz Zutta, opening with the following sentence: \"The way of the wise is to be modest, humble, alert, and intelligent; to endure injustice; to make himself beloved of men; to be gracious in his interactions even with subordinates; to avoid wrong-doing; to judge each man according to his deeds; to act according to the motto \'I take no pleasure in the good things of this world, seeing that life here below is not my portion.\' Wrapped in his mantle, he sits at the feet of the wise; no one can detect anything unseemly in him; he puts relevant questions, and gives suitable answers.\"\n\nNOW, I could be wrong, but how many Talmidei Chachamim are there in Israel today?  The leading Torah \"scholars\" are extremely parochial in their knowledge.  Moreover, they advocate \"pure education,\" which certainly does not offer any info on astronomy.  I\'d be interested to learn Gordon\'s definition of this key term, and his defense of it, as it seems that I could mount an attack on any of the hatted elite while satisfying this restriction.\n\nAnyway, Gordon\'s policy, despite its key ambiguities, very clearly conflicts with Fishman\'s practice.  Fishman\'s official policy is to censor any heresy (see his blog entry on 1 Adar Bet 5768, 3/8/2008).  His unofficial policy is to pursue vendettas.  For example, in my case (which I mention because it is only case in which I can know what was deleted), Fishman now imposes 100% censorship unless I quote, without modification, from places like Torah.org.  (I have posted a TB under a different name, but without any Torah and without any effort to be nice, and this TB was ok\'d.  Hm.)\n\nThus, the logical follow-up question:  why does Fishman\'s policy conflict with INN\'s policy?");

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