sRepliesHTML = "";iReplies = 89;mReplies = iReplies;iDiv = 7744
AddReply(279746,"to CG","Leah","Maaleh Adumim","02/24/08","CG, I realize you are trying to be a peacemaker, but you are mistaken.  SG and I were not attacking, and certainly not \"ganging up\", but repeatedly defending from the attacks by Steve.  read through the posts objectively and  you will see this is true.  first he attacked mainstream Jewish belief and law; then said that observant Jews who agree with mainstream Jewish belief and law are \"mindless\"; and then continued his attack by quoting a lot of things out of context.  possibly you sympathize with him because the opinion he expressed was the Christian opinion; but that is not the Jewish opinion.  the Jewish opinion was described in the article by Ellen, and in the links that SG and I provided in our posts.  that opinion is the consensus of Jewish experts and observant Jews.  you might personally agree or disagree with it (it\'s a free country...), but you cannot deny that it is the mainstream opinion/belief/way of thought in Orthodox Judaism.  ");
AddReply(279419,"Questions/ attacks","curious Gentile","USA","02/22/08","Steve seemed to give information and ask questions. The attacks came from Shy Guy and Leah. At times, both ganging up on Steve.\n\nA point can be made in a kind drect way. And minus a few links too. This info. should be in near to our minds and more important, our hearts.\n\nIn the end G-d will examine the motive of our hearts more than the knowlegde of our brains. \n\nThere is a point when we are not able to convence another to try and see things our way.\n\nPray and put the whole thing is G-ds hands. For he wants all to find Him, much more than you or I do. All who seek G-ds truth will find Him. I think now is the time to stop arguing law and seek Moschiah.\nG-d Bless Israel!\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nAnd He knows the best way to reach one and all. Since He made us all.");
AddReply(278443,"to Steve","Leah","Maaleh Adumim","02/19/08","I am not going to continue arguing because every time I explain something clearly to you, you just come back with more attacks.  please read my previous posts.  ");
AddReply(278311,"Leah #85: Important question","Steve","Fla.","02/19/08","This may be my last post on this topic, if I can get an  answer from you, if Arutz screeners will post this.  I will try one more time. Will you please answer this important question?\n\nYou claim to represent the \"MAINSTREAM halachic Jewish view supported by the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of Jewish EXPERTS AND THINKERS.\"\n\nAccording to Wikipedia on-line encyclopedia, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef is a  Talmudic scholar; a recognized authority in Halakha (\"Jewish law\"). He is the former Sephardic chief rabbi of Israel and the current spiritual leader of the Shas party.  Rabbi Yosef is a Posek or \"decider\" - a legal scholar who decides the Halakha in cases of law where previous authorities are inconclusive.\n\nRabbi Yosef has for many years advocated peace negotiations with Israel\'s enemies who are dedicated to Israel\'s destruction.  Rabbi Yosef\'s justification is the Halakhic ruling of Pikuach Nefesh (\"saving lives\"), in which all the Jewish commandments (excluding adultery, idolatry, and murder) are put on hold if a life is put in danger.\n\nRabbi Yosef applied this pikuach nefesh argument to Israel\'s conflicts with its neighbors in 1979, when he ruled that it granted Israel authority to return the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt.\n\nRabbi Yosef used his position as Shas spiritual leader to pressure Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir into agreeing to hold negotiations with Arab states for a peaceful settlement of the Arab-Israeli conflict. \n\nRabbi Yosef supported the murderous Oslo Accords in the 1990s which resulted in over one thousand murdered Jews, many thousand maimed for life.  He instructed Shas to join Yitzhak Rabin\'s government coalition, and later Ehud Barak\'s government.\n\nRabbi Yosef as spiritual leader of Shas, as a great Halakhic authority, is propping up Prime Minister Olmert\'s immoral government as Mr. Olmert negotiates giving Judea and Samaria to our enemies; perhaps Arab neighborhoods in east Jerusalem as well.  This Palestinian Muslim terror state could result in the mass-slaughter of Jews quite unlike we have seen here to fore.\n\nYou claim to represent the mainstream halachic Jewish view supported by the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of Jewish EXPERTS AND THINKERS.  \n\nMay I once again pose this crucial question?   Where are you Leah in all of this?");
AddReply(278108,"reply to Steve","Leah ","Maaleh Adumim","02/18/08","your accusations against me are false.  for someone who claims to be Jewish and claims to be an \"independent thinker\", your views sound a lot like the Christian views in ways that contradict the MAINSTREAM Jewish view supported by the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of Jewish EXPERTS AND THINKERS.  translations are a problem because it is difficult to translate from one language to another, i.e. not necessarily \"fraudulent\" but sometimes mistaken or inaccurate.  you are not an \"independent thinker\", your mind has been made up by your Christian friends and now you are trying to impose that on the opinions of others.  ");
AddReply(277940,"Leah #82","Steve","Fla.","02/18/08","I am neither a Christian nor a \"messianic jew.\"  I am an independent-minded Jew; a born skeptic and an independent thinker.  I guess your faith requires conformity without question?  Is this what you believe Judaism requires?  Strict conformity?  Otherwise you are an am ha\'aretz?  I believe the written Torah is prophecy. That is it came from the mouth of God.  Though I believe Oral law has much wisdom as did our great rabbis and sages like Rashi, Kimchi, Maimonides and others, I do not believe Oral law is prophetic.  I copied some of the statements in our Oral law.  It seems to me the burden is on you and on others to prove why I should consider it equal to written prophecy in our Tanakh.\n\nThe prophet Shmuel was a great man, prophet and judge in Israel.  After Shmuel was told by the people, they wanted a king, Shmuel said the following: \"Here I am; bear witness against me before the Lord and His anointed. Whose ox have I taken, or whose donkey have I taken, or whom have I defrauded? Whom have I oppressed, or from whose hand have I taken a bribe to blind my eyes with it? I will restore it to you.\" \n\nThis is indicative of not only a great prophet of G-d but a man of great moral integrity.  That is why I quoted these passages earlier from Oral law.\n\nThe article (we are commenting on) begins with the premise that Judaism offers a complex and compassionate Jewish approach to abortion.  I suspect we are speaking here of compassion toward the mother; not the child.  If our rabbis determined the unborn child is not fully human then perhaps no compassion needs to be shown to the child; only the mother.\n\nI\'ve got \"The Soncino Tamud.\"  \n\n\"This Special Limited Anniversary Edition of The Babylonian Talmud in English Has Been Published By The Soncino Press and Printed and Bound at the Oxford University Press.\"\n\nTranslated into English with notes / glossary and indices under the Editorship of Rabbi DR I. Epstein B.A. Ph.D. Lit.\n\n\"The Soncio Press London\"\n\nI am typing from the cover and the first few pages of Sefer Tohoroth.  \n\nI bought this (I believe it is a 17 volume) set several years back.  It was not inexpensive.  \n\nI wanted my own copy because I like to confirm things in the text.  I also have three of the best English translations of the Qur\'an for the very same reason.\n\nI went through each and every quote that I posted.  I underlined them in my Talmud.  \n\nNOT ONE that I quoted cannot be found in The Soncino Talmud.\n\nI wonder, is S. G. stating otherwise?  Is he saying Dr I. Eptstein is a revisionist anti-Torah fraud?  If not, I wonder, what is he saying?\n\nHe inferred I am an ignoramus; a boor; an am ha\'aretz, which in Rabbinical literature, is a term of opprobrium and abuse.  I want nothing to do with this man in this world or in the world to come.   \n\nYou say I am attacking you.  All I\'ve done is defend myself as well as my position on this page.");
AddReply(277873,"Heads up about Steve from Fla.","Shy Guy","Jerusalem","02/18/08","It seems he\'s copying and pasting quite a few of his quotes from revisionist anti-Torah and especially anti-Rabbinic articles on a messianic Christian site called Elijah.net or from the books being sold on the site.\n\nNow you know.");
AddReply(277835,"reply to Steve","Leah","Maaleh Adumim","02/18/08","I did not say you were an Am Ha\'aretz or a \"Moser\".  I did say that you reject the MAINSTREAM Jewish halachic view and you parrot the non-Jewish views.  this is very strange, and makes me wonder whether you are really Jewish.  perhaps you have converted to Christianity, or are a \"messianic Jew\"?  your description of halacha as being some kind of hodgepodge is misleading, because certain things really are mainstream and not a matter of variation or personal opinion.  trying to attack me, or SG, or anyone else, does not change this.");
AddReply(277698,"\"Maimonidean Controversy\"","Steve","Fla.","02/17/08","(Moses) Maimonides (1135 - 1204) was willing and ready to respect the  Babylonian exilarch (\"head of Diaspora\") as scion of the royal house of David and as the proper authority from the halakhic point of view, to appoint and ordain judges.\n\nHis mind and heart vehemently opposed the genonim (Babylonian scholars; singular, gaon, meaning \"his eminence\").\n\nMaimonides criticized the sages who \"fixed for themselves monetary demands from individuals and communities and caused people to think, in utter foolishness, that it is obligatory and proper that they should help sages and scholars and people studying Torah....all this is wrong.  There is not a single work...to lend credence to it....(commentary to Avot 4:5)  Encyclopedia Judaica, page 745-746, \"Maimonidean Controversy\"");
AddReply(277689,"Leah #77: Your accusation","Steve","Fla.","02/17/08","Leah, you wrote: \"you reject the mainstream halachic views given...\",etc.\n\nLet us be clear to everyone including Curious Gentile and others.  Halakha is the collective body of Jewish religious law, including Biblical law (the 613 mitzvot), later Talmudic and Rabbinic law (which is what you are referring to) as well as customs and traditions.\n\nShy G. wrote: \"Steve, you have a lot to learn......\"Lo Am Ha\'Aretz Hassid.\" \n\nThis expression comes from Aboth: Sayings of the Fathers: \"An empty-headed man cannot be a sin-fearing man, nor can an ignorant person [a vulgar person; one unlearned in Oral Torah] be truly pious (\"Lo am ha-aretz Hasid\"), nor can the shy learn, nor the impatient teach....\"\n\nIn the Tahakh (the Jewish Bible) Am Ha-aretz were citizens in any country.  \"So Avraham rose and bowed to the people of the land, the sons of Heth. (Gen. chapter 23)\n\nLater, according to our Rabbis, those who did not honor the Rabbis or accept their teachings were part of the despised am ha\'aretz--the ignorant, common people. \n\nBabylonian Talmud, Sotah 22a says the following re: Am Ha\'Aretz: \"It has been reported, If one has learnt Scripture and Mishnah but did not attend upon (venerate) Rabbinical scholars, R. Eleazar says he is an \'Am ha-arez\'2  R. Samuel b. Nahmani says he is a boor....Our Rabbis taught: Who is an \'Am ha-arez? Whoever does not recite the Shema\' morning and evening with its accompanying benedictions; such is the statement of R. Meir. The Sages say: Whoever does not put on the phylacteries. Ben Azzai says: Whoever has not the fringe upon his garment.  R. Jonathan b. Joseph says: Whoever has sons and does not rear them to study (Oral) Torah. Others say: Even if he learnt Scripture and Mishnah but did not attend upon Rabbinical scholars, he is an \'Am ha-arez. If he learnt Scripture but not Mishnah, he is a boor; if he learnt neither Scripture nor Mishnah, concerning him Scripture declares, I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and with the seed of beast.  (Sotah 22a) \n\nAccording to this opinion, an Am ha-aretz is an ignoramous, a beast, a boor, a lout, a scoundrel, etc.\n\n\"A Rabbinic scholar may strip men of their cloaks? But we do not attend to his case.... A scholar, if he has obtained his money by force from the debtor, is allowed to retain it; but an ordinary person is compelled by the court to return it.\" (Shevu\'oth 41a and note)\n\n\"The Rabbis have power to expropriate.\" (Gittin 36b)\n\n\"For R. Johanan said: Whoever casts merchandise into the pockets of scholars will be privileged to sit in the Heavenly Academy, for it is said, for wisdom is a defence even as money is a defence. \" (Pes.53b quoting Eccl. 7:12)\n\n\"Has it not been taught: Why were the bazaars of Beth Hini destroyed? (Bethania, a place near Jerusalem) Because they based their actions upon Scripture, [disregarding Rabbinical law.]\" ( B.M. 88a)\n\n\"Whosoever gives a legal decision in the presence of his Master (a Rabbinic scholar) incurs the penalty of death\'.\" (Eruvin 63a)\n\n\"Our Rabbis taught: Even if one has learnt Scripture and Mishnah, if he has not ministered to the disciples of the wise (Rabbinic scholars), he is an \'am ha-arez.\' \" (Ber.47b)\n\nThose who did not honor the Rabbis or accept their teachings were part of the despised am ha\'aretz--the ignorant, common people.\n\nIs this your view as well Leah?\n");
AddReply(277549,"Just so everyone should know what Steve is referring to regarding \'Moser\'","Shy Guy","Jerusalem","02/17/08","See the comments on this thread on the IsraellyCool blog:\n\nhttp://www.israellycool.com/2008/01/31/aussie-dave-needs-a-rest-open-thread/\n\nIt appears that Steve here is commenter Joshua B. there.\n\nFor what it\'s worth, now you can put things into context of who said what and why.\n\nCurious, the best to you and your family. Glad you picked up something along the way in all this muddle.");
AddReply(277199,"Shy guy and Steve","Curious Gentile","USA","02/15/08","Shy guy. I did not know what Oral Torah was before this week, I am learning. It\'s important to you, I respect that.\n\nSteve. You are not mindless. You are very intelligent.\n\nBoth of you are, and very passionate in your beliefs. \n\nI admit to not always understanding your debate,(at the end, were you guys discussing abortion issues? just kidding.) and it\'s probably none of my business, but if I may say, we\'re free to seek the truth in our own way. Is the goal to be found pleasing to G-d?\n\nI pray G-d bless Israel, and that includes you Ellen! And I pray for the peace of Jerusalem.");
AddReply(277186,"rebuttal to Steve","Leah","Maaleh Adumim","02/15/08","1. I do not \"worship\" rabbis but respect their knowledge.\n2. the opinion that you quote regarding King David and Bat Sheva is only one of several opinions regarding this in the Talmud.\n3. on the other hand, when you reject the mainstream halachic views given in Ellen\'s article and the Aish website, while parroting non-Jewish views - this is strange to say the least.  when you reject halachic views and adopt non-Jewish views instead, this is not \"thinking for yourself\".  it sounds like the non-Jews are doing your thinking for you.");
AddReply(277067,"Shy Guy calls me Moser: \"Lo Am Ha\'Aretz Hassid\"","Steve","Fla.","02/14/08","http://home.earthlink.net/~judaism/\n\nNEW YORK - (February 3, 2006) The American Board of Rabbis has issued a Rabbinic Decree for all Rabbis worldwide to publicly curse the Ehud Olmert government.  “The entire Olmert government is put into a curse for its brutal attack against Jewish civilians in keeping with the Talmudic dictum, \"the curse of a Rabbi, even if unwarranted, shall come to fruition,” (Talmudic Tractate Makos 11a) stated Rabbi Mordechai Yitzchok Friedman, President of the American Board of Rabbis..... The American Board of Rabbis has undertaken an international campaign for rabbis worldwide to put a lethal spiritual curse on the Olmert government, especially to be cursed the Kapo / Israeli Police / soldiers who physically attacked unarmed teenagers.  The tyranny of this government is halachically termed as ‘Moser’ – traitors.  These pariahs are to receive capital punishment! (Code of Maimonides: Nezekin, Hilchous Chovale and Mazik, Chapter 8; Shulchan Aruch: The Definitive Code of Jewish Law, Volume Choshen Mishpat, Hilchos Mabad Mahmon, Chapter 388) ");
AddReply(277045,"PS: Leah (Rabbis)","Steve","Fla.","02/14/08","Rabbi Shalom Dov Wolpo is a great rabbi in Israel and a courageous man.\n\nI may not agree with Rabbi Wolpo on each and every issue, but here we have a man of great moral courage.\n\n");
AddReply(277038,"Shy Guy","Steve","Fla.","02/14/08","You wrote of me:  \"Lo Am Ha\'Aretz Hassid.\" \n\nShy Guy wrote: \"no other people in the history of the earth are so concerned about the welfare of the enemy, because at the end of the day, they are also human beings.\n\n\"At the most elementary level, the Talmudic phrase “Ve’Lo Am Ha’Aretz Hassid” applies to such people.\n\n\"But I prefer to call them what they are in practice: “Mosrim”. How many deaths and how much suffering have they caused through their encouragement of some of the worst human beasts of history. There is everything to be ashamed about them.\"\n\nhttp://chareidi.shemayisrael.com\n\nMoser:\n\n\"In Jewish society, a moser was considered the lowest level to which a Jew could sink.....Last week the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, an organization based in London that, despite its ostensibly neutral name, is openly an advocate for Palestinian political interests, was joined by the Israeli organization Yesh Gvul in filing a complaint against current IDF commander Dan Chalutz and former IDF commander Moshe Yaalon for war crimes, because of their involvement in the assassination of mass murderer Salah Shehadeh.....\"\n\nShy Guy, I cannot call you a \"fellow Jew.\"  In the world to come, you can live in one city; I will live in another.   As G-d is our witness, you are disreputable, ignoble, shameful.\n");
AddReply(277011,"Leah you are mistaken; SG: a lot to learn ","Steve","Fla.","02/14/08","S.G., as I have come to understand it, our sages teach us (Shabbat 56a) David taking Bat Shevah wasn’t simple adultery like one might \"misinterpret\" from the text.\n\nAccording to our sages Uriya sinned to King David by disrespecting him as king, by referring to his commander as master rather than the king\'s servant and consequently he deserved the death penalty.\n\nYou believe this, is my best guess?  \n\nShy Guy, I would submit to you, we all have a lot to learn.\n\nLeah, I do not \"reject\" the teachings of our Jewish sages.  Sages are sage for a reason.  They are scholars and very learned men and thus we should respect them and carefully weigh their teachings.  \n\nMy late father was a very wise Jewish man; sage in his advise.  Yet he was human as are our rabbis.  Rabbis are rabbis.  They are not prophets.  They are not gods.  \n\nWe have a great Posek in Israel who, as spiritual leader, is keeping his religious party (Shas) in Olmert\'s immoral government based on a principle known as Pikuach Nefesh (saving lives).  That is, it is morally justifiable to give Jewish land to our enemies if it will save lives.  Neither you nor Shy Guy have commented on this ruling; on this judgment.\n\nBlaming Torah observance for the Holocaust?  Many rabbis throughout Europe admonished the faithful to not go with these \"these evil men who deny the Unique One of the world and his Holy Torah.\" (Rabbi Joseph Sonnenfeld)  \"I will not move from my place, I will not ascend for the sake of the Zionists.\" (Zadok of Lublin)  This is history.  It is fact.\n\nI might recommend to you Leah, Harav Yisachar Shlomo Teichtal, \"Eim Habanim Semeichah, on Eretz Yisrael, Redemption, and Unity.\"  Rabbi Teichtal perished on a train on his way to Mauthausen concentration camp.\n\n\"Who amongst us is greater than the spies,\" Teichtal wrote.  \"The Torah testifies they were proper individuals. Nonetheless, since they were influenced by their desire for authority, they rejected the desirable Land and led others astray, causing this bitter exile (as Chazal explains)...The same holds true in our times, even among rabbis, rebbes, and chassidim.  This one has a good rabbinical position; this one is an established Admor; and this one has a profitable business or factory, or a prestigious job which provides great satisfaction.  They are afraid that their status will decline if they go to Eretz Yisrael.  People of this sort are influenced by their deep-rooted selfish motives to such an extent that they themselves do not realize that their prejudice speaks on their behalf.\"\n\nOn Tamar Yonah\'s blog, a regular contributor to Arutz Sheva wrote: \"Rabbi-worship is the worst form of Avoda Zarah.\"\n\nIs he wrong?\n\n\n\n\n\n");
AddReply(276936,"who is mindless????","Leah","Maaleh Adumim","02/14/08","I would say that a \"mindless Jew\" is one who rejects the teachings of Jewish sages, while parroting non-Jewish misinterpretations of the Torah, and taking scattered quotes out of context.  observant Jews are not \"mindless\".  but hecklers usually are.\n\nnow Steve is blaming Torah observance for the Holocaust????  instead read this:  http://www.aish.com/seminars/whythejews/\n\nthere are also many other excellent Torah websites besides www.aish.com, but Aish just has excellent articles about many relevant topics.  in fact, I highly recommend just browsing the Aish website.  you might learn something!\n");
AddReply(276919,"thanks for info, SG","Leah","Maaleh Adumim","02/14/08","\"Shy Guy\", thanks for the clarification about \"yatza\".  yes, you are right - and now that I think of it, if the root \"yalad\" would be used for referring to a newborn, it would have to be \"nolad\" (\"is born\") and not \"yalda\" (which refers to the mother giving birth).  in any event, the conclusion is that \"yatza\" is a very general word referring to \"going out\", and can include birth but also includes many other \"goings out\" unrelated to birth.\n\n(I already sent a post with this a few days ago, and maybe it didn\'t go through.  but if the other post eventually shows up, making this one a duplicate, sorry about that.)\n\nalso, excellent article from Aish about the Talmud.  ");
AddReply(276886,"Steve and Curious","Shy Guy","Jerusalem","02/14/08","Steve, you have a lot to learn. You don\'t even understand the P\'shat (do you know what that is?) of the Medrash about David in Shabbat 56A. \"Lo Am Ha\'Aretz Hassid.\" End of overtime discussion.\n\nCurious, as you can see I\'m a dodo when it comes to Latin. :)\n\nYou are aware, I hope, that the Torah\'s Oral Law never meant for an \'eye for an eye\' to be taken literally. This is most important in Jewish law.");
AddReply(276713,"#59 Shy Guy","Curious gentile","USA","02/14/08","\"Talio\" is latin for retribution \"eye for an eye\"\n\nThanks for your help in understanding Hebrew.\n\nTake care,\n");
AddReply(276436,"Shy Guy: I am not a mindless Jew","Steve","Fla.","02/13/08","We are not in a loop. This Aish writer compares Written Torah (the Almighty\'s holy law) to \"notes\" in a Harvard Business School.  Such nonsense! \n\nI\'ve got The Soncino (Babylonian) Talmud; the entire multi-volume set, from Seder Zera\'im(Berakoth, Terumoth, Ma\'aseroth, etc.) to Seder Torhoroth (Niddah, Kelim, Tohoroth, etc.).\n\nShabbath 56a says: \"R. Samuel b Nahmani said in R. Jonathan\'s name: Whoever says that David sinned is merely erring, for it is said, And David behaved himself wisely in all of his ways; and the Lord was with him.\"\n\nNow you may choose to leave yourself of your senses Shy Guy; not me.  The Almighty gave us each a brain.  I try to use mine.  \n\nYou can believe whatever you wish.  I would submit, many thousands, perhaps millions of Jews perished in the Nazi death camps with your uncritical viewpoit, which rejects these G-d given faculties we were given.");
AddReply(276306,"Steve, we\'re in a loop. Leah, I disagree","Shy Guy","Jerusalem","02/13/08","Steve, you seem to have missed the point about the Torah\'s Oral Law I made many posts ago. End of conversation. I\'ll leave you with this article link:\n\nhttp://www.aish.com/shavuotsinai/shavuotsinaidefault/What_is_the_Oral_Torah$.asp\n\n\nLeah, \'yatzah\' is used in reference to Eisav\'s and Yaakov\'s departure from the womb. Same for Peretz and Zerach, the twins of Tamar. There are other examples.\n\nOf course, by Tamar, the word \'laida\', specifically \'her birthing\', is used as well. The subject of \'yatza\', \'going out\', in all these cases is the fetus/child, whereas the subject of \'laida\', \'giving birth\', is the mother herself.");
AddReply(276118,"\"yatza\"","Leah","Maaleh Adumim","02/12/08","\"Shy Guy\" and Larry have already written correctly about this, but I just need to add:  the fact that the word \"yatza\" rather that \"yalda\" is used in Ex 22:21 is *proof* that this refers to a miscarriage rather than a premature birth.  that is *exactly* why the word \"yatza\" is used rather than \"yalda\" - because it is *not* a birth!  in fact, in the same chapter, Ex. 21:4 (mistakenly quoted by CG) is an example comparing them:  \"yalda\" referring to birth, along with \"yatza\" referring to \"going out\" (although not as a miscarriage, simply leaving a place).  and Steve - you completely misunderstand Talmudic logic.  the whole Talmud is full of \"what-if\'s\" - that is the whole point.  and the complete  discussions are quoted there for the future, even the minority opinions.  no, these were not prophets but great scholars, discussing the Oral Torah, which you don\'t find in the KJV translation.  as for the other translations you quote - I don\'t know, all the translations I have consider the verse as referring to causing a miscarriage, which is very serious but not murder.  there is no \"mistake\" in the article on www.aish.com.  they are giving the Jewish view!  period!");
AddReply(276115,"to Mabel","Leah","Maaleh Adumim","02/12/08","yes, Mabel, I was the one who wrote that it would be good to have organizations in the US similar to Efrat. interestingly, I have known about Efrat for many years and donate to them regularly, but I have never heard about even one of the organizations that you mention.  although I have certainly heard about planned parenthood!  and also about attacks by anti-abortionists on abortion clinics.  and if I (the average newspaper-reading citizen) have never heard about these organizations, then how would a pregnant woman who is contemplating abortion, even be aware of them?  I am not criticizing, but just saying that if these organizations exist, they should advertise more!  (and don\'t start criticizing me for using the term \"anti abortion\", I also refer to the other side as \"pro abortion\" which is certainly more negative.  I don\'t like PC words with spin.)");
AddReply(276113,"Shy Guy #62 and Ellen","Steve","Fla.","02/12/08","Mabel wrote: \"Rabbi Yehuda Levin, Washington, DC, USA,  for untold numbers of years has stood shoulder to shoulder with Christians and Jews in saving unborn children in the USA. He is always on hand at our Washington, DC annual March for Life each January, and is a highly honored member of the pro-life movement in our country.\"\n\nEllen wrote: \"Congressman Chris Smith, leader of the Pro-Life Caucus in the House of Representatives, led the group --which \nUS lawmakers expressed concern over Israel\'s declining birth rate -- met with Shas party officials, Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger and others in order to bolster Israeli legislative efforts in the battle against abortion..... As a Torah-observant woman, I wouldn\'t touch America\'s pro-life or pro-choice camp with 10-foot forceps, as neither position represents the complex and compassionate Jewish approach to the issue.\"\n\nAs a Jew, I do not see anything wrong with EFRAT members, Shas party officials, Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger and others meeting with Congressman Chris Smith and his delegation.  As a Jew, I do not see anything wrong with Rabbi Yehuda Levin standing shoulder to shoulder with Christians and Jews in saving unborn children in the USA.\n\nIf Smith attempted to share his personal faith with these people, that would be an entirely different matter.  Same would hold true with Rabbi Levin.  Abortion is a moral issue.\n\nEllen wrote a piece or two earlier about Christian organizations that participate in the annual Feast of the Tabernacles pilgrimage.  I agree with the rabbis.  There are people that are proselytizing; they are correct in their ruling.  As she wrote, \"It is first and foremost a religious pilgrimage, and not a Salute to Israel event.\"");
AddReply(276103,"#59 S.G.: Curious is to be commended","Steve","Fla.","02/12/08","Curious Gentile has done his homework. He got the term in Ex 21:4 confused.  So what? You wrote that he relies on what suits his whims and presuppositions.  I do not see this.  \n\nYou told him to \"quit forcing (his) beliefs on us. That simple demand shouldn\'t require a translator.\"\n\nI don\'t see this either.  If I did, I would call it like it is.  Maybe I missed something he wrote in an earlier post.\n\nBut what you are saying cuts both ways, does it not?  Secular Jews often admonish observant Jews to quit forcing their beliefs on the secular.  We read this constantly.\n\nThis issue of abortion is a moral question.  People can differ.  This does not mean a particular side is forcing its beliefs on the other side.\n\nHere in the U.S., if anyone forced their beliefs on an entire nation, it was the U.S. Supreme court which rendered a decision affecting every state in the Union.  You don\'t think these men in black robs were affected by what suited their whims and presuppositions?  What about Israel\'s Supreme Court?  No whims?  No presuppositions?\n\nDo you think our rabbis never rule according to whim or presupposition?  Never?\n\nDo we not have a religious party in Mr. Olmert\'s coalition based on the principle of Pikuach Nefesh?  That it is permissible to give Jewish land to Israel\'s enemies if it results in  saving lives?  A great Posek in our time so ruled.\n\nThese are rabbinical rulings, are they not?");
AddReply(276069,"Mabel, Ellen didn\'t say what you attribute to her","Shy Guy","Jerusalem","02/12/08","One of the posters here stated what you quoted, not Ellen.");
AddReply(276050,"\'Yatza\'","Larry","Mevaseret","02/12/08","It just means \'go out\', leave, etc. There is no connection with \'yeled\'. The Hebrew to be born and give birth is indeed from the root \'yalad\'...Yetziah is an \'exit\', and so on.");
AddReply(276037,"REPLY TO ELLEN W. HOROWITZ","Mabel Ryan","LifeEd.Ministry","02/12/08","In your message   \"pro-life members in the US would be well-advised to start  organizations resembling \"Efrat\":    In the USA today there are in excess of  3,000 such organizations.   They are located in every state in the union and have been organized for over 30 years.   These organizations operate to help pregnant  women during their pregnancy,   during  the delivery of the baby,  and after  the birth.   They supply the needs of the mothers, families, as well as the needs of the newborn.     All this service is without charge to the families,  and is supported  by  individuals who  believe that taking the life  of  any  unborn  child   is  a murderous  act against our most innocent citizens  as well as  an abomination against God and His children.      Our organization,  Life Education Ministry, Inc.,  although  operated  by  Christians,    love and honor our Jewish brothers and sisters,   and work in perfect harmony with many  of them  in this battle against abortion.  \n\nMay I suggest  that it would serve you well to contact Rabbi Yehuda Levin,  Washington, DC,  USA,   who  for untold numbers of years has stood shoulder to shoulder  with  Christians  and Jews  in saving  unborn children  in the USA.    He  is  always  on hand at our Washington, DC  annual  March for Life  each January,   and is a highly honored member of  the pro-life movement in our country.    \n\nMabel Ryan,  President,  Life Education Ministry, Inc. ");
AddReply(276003,"Curious, believe what you want","Shy Guy","Jerusalem","02/12/08","We Jews rely on transmission from generation to generation from the Torah\'s revelation at Sinai when it comes to the interpreting the Torah and its commandments, not what suits our whims and presuppositions.\n\nAll this article says and what we\'re saying is believe what you want but quit forcing your beliefs on us. That simple demand shouldn\'t require a translator.\n\nRegarding the word \"yatza\", yes, it does mean \"went out\". Examples abound, including the ever-famous \"Yetziyat Mitzraim\" - the \"Exodus from Egypt.\n\nIn Exodus 21:4, the word used is \"Ve\'yalda\", which is the specific word for \"birth\" - in this case \"and she gave birth.\"\n\nI cannot make out what Hebrew term you\'re referring to when you mention \"talio\".");
AddReply(275937,"To shy guy","Curious Gentile","USA","02/12/08","This has been an interesting study for me, and I\'ve come to some conclusions. I am going to trust my English translation Bible as it has served me very well for many decades. Scripture should stand on its own and speak for itself. I don\'t follow any one persons interpretation. I study the bible myself always taking it all in context.\n\nWith our Exodus 21 I have researched the original Hebrew. I made my best attempt to understand. But this was my first attempt to study Hebrew. I understand \"Yatsa\" from the noun \"yeled\" is used 89 times in the \"old testament\" can we agree it means \"to come out\"? Often referring to live birth. A couple of examples, Exodus 21:4 Job1:21.\n\nI am convinced Exodus 21:22,23 does not allow abortion. This is why. Verse 22 does not specify if the penalty applies to the mother or the child. Same for verse 23, does not specify who is harmed, but the penalty is severe, \"talio\" is involked. And this is how G-d dealt with an accidental death. How much more the death of innocents.\n\nG-d has spoken many times regarding the killing of innocents, a few examples: Proverbs 6:16,17  2nd Kings 8:12 Amos 1:3 Exodus 23:7 ");
AddReply(275843,"Steve, Sanhedrin 57B","Shy Guy","Jerusalem","02/12/08","Well, if you can read the Gemara, you would know it\'s referring to a non-Jew (B\'nei Noah) and Rashi there says that this applies to the example given in Exodus 21, though there it refers to a Jew causing the miscarriage.\n\nThen you have to start asking how there can be a distinction between Jew and non-Jew, i.e., is it murder or not? And Is R\' Yishamel\'s opinion the accepted opinion?\n\nLots of complex Halachic discussions extend from this. Way above my league. You\'ll find several articles on the web about them but most of them are summaries and do not go in depth enough.\n\nThis is where I get off.");
AddReply(275836,"so that you and your children will live!","chicago","chicago","02/11/08","Agreed and amen.");
AddReply(275834,"futile argument and too complex for a talkback","ellen","Golan Heights","02/11/08","To get a glimpse as to how complex this issue really is , and to why we need to defer to halachic authorities, go to:\nhttp://www.jlaw.com/Articles/stemcellres.html\n\nAlso remember that certain laws are applied differently to Jews than they are to Gentiles.\n\nAnd here is some food for thought by a great rabbi ahd halachic authority:\n\n\"The moral law can never be legislated in ultimate terms by the human mind.\" -- Rabbi Yosef B. Soloveitchik\n");
AddReply(275778,"Leah, I\'ve got Rashi","Steve","Fla.","02/11/08","I have \"Soncino Books of the Bible.\" Complete in 14 volumes.  Classical Commentators: Abraham Ibn Ezra, Gersonides, Kimchi, Nachmanides, Rashi, Sforno, Rashbam.\n\nI\'ve got \"Chumash with Raish\'s Commentary, edited by Rabbi A. M. Sibermann.\n\nI used these translations.  \n\nYou say they are no good?  What translation do you recommend, if not these?");
AddReply(275763,"Shy Guy (S.G.) #51: Nothing is assumed","Steve","Fla.","02/11/08","You wrote: \"Real friendship is unconditional.\"\n\nOn this we agree.\n\nShy Guy wrote: \"abortion under very specific circumstances is permitted by the Torah and that is what G-d taught Moses and all of Israel some 3500 years ago and has been adhered to ever since by Torah observant Jewry.\"\n\n22. Leah gave you the links\nHer first link is sufficient.\nShy Guy, Jerusalem (06/02/08)\n\nAish wrote: \"... The fact that the Torah requires a monetary payment for causing a miscarriage is interpreted by some Rabbis to indicate that abortion is not a capital crime.\"\n\nFrom the link to Chabad you provided:\n\n22. \"And should men quarrel and hit a pregnant woman, and she miscarries but there is no fatality...\"\n\n\"...there is no fatality with the woman. -[From Sanh. 79a, Jonathan]\"\n\nRabbi Simeon (San 79a) applies this verse to the woman, as does Rashi.  Rashi\'s commentary (I have it) reads: \"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet there is no mischief...\" etc.\n\nOn the other hand, San57b reads: \"On the authority of Rabbi Ishmael it is said: [He is executed] even for the murder of an embryo.  What is R. Ishmael\'s reason? - Because it is written, \'Whoso sheddeth the blood of man within [another] man, shall his blood be shed\'.  What is a man within another man? - An embryo in his mother\'s womb.\"\n\nRabbi Ishmael\'s position is that it is a captital crime.  Rabbi Simeon\'s position; it was not.\n\nNow I ask you S.G., were these two rabbis prophets of the Almighty like Moshe (Moses)?   If you believe these two were true prophets of the Almighty, which do you choose to believe?");
AddReply(275730,"mistranslations","Leah","Maaleh Adumim","02/11/08","to Steve - both \"Shy Guy\" and I have explained in repeated posts regarding the actual meaning of the Torah verses.  so here you go again using a mistranslation just because it suits your purposes?  please read the previous posts, as well as the articles on www.aish.com and the Chabad website, and stop raising mistranlations whose falsity has already been thoroughly established.");
AddReply(275702,"Steve from Florida, read my earlier posts","Shy Guy","Jerusalem","02/11/08","Nothing is \'assumed\' in Exodus 21. Already discussed.");
AddReply(275631,"Shy guy #46","Steve","Fla.","02/11/08","#26 makes a valid point.  This is my point.  The text itself does not specify it was a \"miscarriage.\"\n\nCurious gentile wrote: \"What I was seeking was evidence straight from the Bible/Torah. I read Exodus 21:22 My bible translates the birth as \"premature\" not \"miscarriage\".");
AddReply(275619,"Eureka!  I found the perfect term...","ellen","Golan Heights","02/11/08","I really appreciate all of the thoughtful comments on this article.  I think we can now see why Israel does not need, or want, to import America\'s \"pro-life\" vs \"pro-choice\" abortion battle.\n\nBut I have come up with a well know Torah concept and Jewish term which explains our postion well and takes both opposing camps into account.\n\nHow about \"Choose Life\".");
AddReply(275586,"Leah #45","Steve","Fla.","02/11/08","Leah, I am not active in the pro-life movement presently.  I spend most of my time supporting Israel in addition to running a small business.  I fully intend to immigrate.\n\nPerhaps you are aware (perhaps not), your point that \"those who call themselves \"pro life\" are just anti abortion but don\'t do anything to help the mother-to-be,\" is standard fare from those that are strongly pro-abortion rights.\n\nPro-life activists see this accusation from time to time here in our area.  \"What have you done for mothers?  What do you do to help the pregnant women in need?!\"\n\nThe accusation is baseless  of course because pro-life activists -- at least in our area -- are doing plenty to help mothers to be.");
AddReply(275585,"Shy Guy #46","Steve","Fla.","02/11/08","What is the basis of your understanding Exodus 21?  Two men are struggling together and strike a woman with child so that her \"fruit depart\" (her child goes forth)...and yet there is no harm, he shall surely be fined....\"\n\nTypically it is assumed a \"miscarriage\" resulted from the mother being struck by the man.  Why assume this?   If you assume it was a miscarrage then the child\'s life has no value.\n\nIf it was a pre-mature birth then the child\'s life has value.\n\nAs the verse says: \"If there is harm (to either the mother or her child) you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, etc. ");
AddReply(275539,"So, Florida Steve, what is your remaining point?","Shy Guy","Jerusalem","02/11/08","That you agree with Leah in general? Sounds like it.\n\nOr is your point that we can argue forever about the semantics of the term \'pro-life\'? I mean, if we\'re in general agreement, then we\'re just left with semantics, aren\'t we?\n\nWe\'ve already pointed out our basis in understanding the verses in Exodus 21.\n\nSo what exactly are you still arguing about?");
AddReply(275530,"to Steve in Fla","Leah","Maaleh Adumim","02/11/08","if you have a center for helping the pregnant women financially, similar to Efrat, then that is fine.  but in many cases those who call themselves \"pro life\" are just anti abortion but don\'t do anything to help the mother-to-be.  there should certainly be more centers and organizations similar to Efrat.");
AddReply(275410,"What is my agenda Leah?","Steve","Fla","02/10/08","You wrote, my message shows the true agenda of those who call themselves \"pro life\".\n\nWhat is my agenda, since you know? \n\nYou are mistaken.  Here in our town, we have a crisis pregnancy center next to our local abortion mill; next to our local killing center.  Many communities have crisis pregnancy centers that are funded by charitable contributions, just like Efrat.  Side walk counselors, when they are present, try to speak with these young mothers, encouraging them to get  counsel at the crisis pregnancy center next door.  These pregnancy centers offer pregnancy tests; they offer the young mother financial help, most anything she needs to carry the pregnancy to term if this is what she decides; they offer her the alternative of adoption rather than killing their child at the hands of the abortionist.  What is wrong with that?   They are saving lives?\n\nThis is wrong Leah?");
AddReply(275386,"so called \"pro life\"","Leah","Maaleh Adumim","02/10/08","you see, Steve, that is exactly the point in Ellen\'s article, and the opinion of many Jews who oppose abortion.  if you would read my previous posts, you would see that I don\'t use the terminology of \"pro life\" and not \"pro choice\" either because these are both terms with a \"spin\" that don\'t show the true agenda of their promoters.  therefore I call them by their real agendas:  anti abortion and pro abortion.  I oppose abortion, but I know that if abortion would be made illegal, then this would not really prevent abortions.  it would just mean that women who are poor and desperate would pay a lot of money for dangerous illegal abortions - so that not only the life of their unborn child but their own lives would be in danger. so the so called \"pro life\" organizations are  not really pro life but only anti abortion.  I am sure that many women who get an abortion for \"convenience\" or because they think they are not financially able to support a baby - can be helped by organizations like Efrat, and this is the best way to *really* prevent abortions.  I  have not heard of any organizations like Efrat in the US.  if they exist, they should advertise more so that pregnant women who are contemplating abortion will come to them instead of an abortion clinic.  and no, I have  never protested in front of an abortion clinic for the above-mentioned reasons.  I contribute regularly to Efrat and I have prevented many abortions in that way.  Steve, your message shows the true agenda of those who call themselves \"pro life\".  ");
AddReply(275357,"Leah, why not \"pro-life?\"  ","Steve","Fla.","02/10/08","You use the terminology of those that denigrate people who are in favor of life.  \n\nWhy the negative, \"anti\" abortion? Do you also call people that favor abortion \"anti-life?\"\n\nWhy do you assume there are not similar organizations to Efrat in the U.S.?\n\nHave you ever physically protested in front of a killing center?  Have you stood in protest outside an abortion mill or in front of a hospital that performs abortions?  \n\nHave you protested an abortionist who kills the unborn?");
AddReply(275126,"Efrat organization","Leah","Maaleh Adumim","02/10/08","anyone who wants to *really* prevent abortions should look at the website of Efrat http://efrat.org.il/en/(mentioned in Ellen\'s article).  they are doing an important job, and I have been donating to them regularly for the past few years.  anti-abortionists in the US would be well-advised to start similar organizations.  ");
AddReply(274751,"For those who have access to Sefer Ha\'Chizkuni","Shy Guy","Jerusalem","02/08/08","Have a look at the Chizkuni\'s commentary on Sh\'mot 21:22. The Chizkuni is also printed in Mosad Ha\'Rav Kook\'s Chumash Torat Haim.");
AddReply(274725,"to Steve in Fla","Leah","Maaleh Adumim","02/08/08","Steve, Rashi didn\'t invent his commentaries; he based them on the traditional Jewish understanding of these verses, based on the Talmud and Oral Torah.  please see also the posts from \"Shy Guy\", he explains it very well.");
AddReply(274716,"To Steve and to Curious","Shy Guy","Jerusalem","02/08/08","Steve, Rashi was a learned Jewish scholar. He essentially quotes the Talmud, which brings down the Oral Law. These are not mortal-made assumptions, as you incorrectly assume. As I\'ve mentioned, the Oral Laws, including the interpretations of the Torah\'s verses, are no less G-d\'s revelation from Sinai than the written Torah.\n\nSo is Rashi or any of the Talmudic sages G-d? No, but they are dedicated loyal conveyors of G-d\'s transmission of the Oral Law throughout the generations.\n\nYou said \'only G-d knows\'. Sorry, not in Judaism, wherever the Oral law is transmitted without disagreement. The circumstances of these verses in Exodus 21 was never in question. As G-d Himself said in the Torah: \"Lo Bashamayim He\" - \"It is not in heaven\" (Deut. 30:12). It was given to us mere mortals to learn, teach and put into practical application.\n\nNow, what did you say your sources are, Steve? A Hebrew - to Greek - to Latin - to English translation of the Torah by people of another faith, who have always been completely ignorant of the most fundamental teachings of Judaism and its law system to begin with? You\'ve got to be kidding!\n\nCurious Gentile, I do not approve of any translation of the Tanach that was produced by heretics, idol worshippers or ignoramuses. I advise you to disapprove of such just the same.\n\nThere are several Torah based translations out there, well known in Jewish communities. Artscroll Publishers is highly recommended. On the Internet, the Chabad link I referred you to earlier has the complete online text of the Judaica Press\' Tanach. Here\'s the link again:\n\nhttp://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm\n\nRegarding your claims of abortion being a divided subject, again, all Horowitz\'s article is saying is that Judaism\'s view is NOT the same as the \"Right to Life\" view, although there are many common agreements among them. And the article\'s point is simple: don\'t shove non-Jewish, anti-Torah agendas on Israel. This is NOT your land nor your people. Back off just a bit, \'friends\'.\n\nAs for your claims of women being haunted with guilt, please show me the study of religious Jewish women who underwent abortions for Halachically permissable reasons, who suffer from long-term trauma. I know of at least 2 such women, whose lives were endangered by the fetus. They are very happy, successful ladies and long ago got over any trauma they had, which was no more or less traumatic that when a fetus is stillbirth by no fault of anyone.\n\nFurthermore, there are many people, who in self defense, have had to kill other people and are indeed traumatized for life. Are you suggesting they should have let themselves be the dead victims instead? Maybe that works out for you, but Judaism is adamantly opposed to \"turning the other cheek\" in such cases.");
AddReply(274704,"Shoddy english translations","Curious G.","US","02/08/08","In my search for an english translation of our Exodus verse I read the translations of 10 english versions. KJV NKJV NLT ESV RVR NASB ASV VNG DBY and WEB. They all had basicaly the same translation. Since you are fluent in both English and Hebrew, could you recomend any of these for this english language reader? \n\nAbortion is a very divided subject, with or without Torah. I do not know Oral Torah, but this I do know, most women who have abortions are haunted with guilt and regret for the rest of their lives. ");
AddReply(274673,"Good going, ShyGuy!","Simcha","Jerusalem","02/08/08","");
AddReply(274651,"Leah #27","Steve","Fla.","02/08/08","Please let me address your second point.\n\nYou wrote: \"the article from Aish HaTorah is correct. the Torah verse makes it very clear that this refers to miscarriage, not premature birth. (if it were simply a case of premature birth, why would anyone need to pay damages?) the two verses compare: what happens if the woman is injured and has a miscarriage, and what happens if the woman herself is killed. this is not \"an explanation due to political expediency\". it is explained in this way by commentators such as Rashi, long before \"political correctness\" entered the scene.\"\n\nThe point is Leah, it does not make it very clear that it is a miscarriage. \n\nRashi was a man. He was not a prophet or a G-d.  Do you believe Rashi is G-d?  Was Rashi a prophet of G-d?\n\nOur rabbis \"assumed\" this; perhaps incorrectly.  You and I do not know. We are mere mortals, are we not?  Only G-d knows. \n\nYou ask, \"if it were simply a case of premature birth, why would anyone need to pay damages.\"  \n\nBecause of the trauma of a premature birth.  Why not not pay damages?  I do not understand this question.  A premature birth due to a blow to the mother is a trauma.  Isn\'t it?");
AddReply(274596,"To Curious Gee","Shy Guy","Jerusalem","02/07/08","Context of verse 23 to 22, simple:\n\nIf the woman who miscarried dies as a direct result of the quarreler who hit her, there is an argument whether the Torah\'s punishment is death for murder or payment for the value of her life.\n\nRegarding 23:26, \"meshakelah\" has a much wider scope of meaning. As Rashi says there, it also refers to the death of living, older children.\n\nYou\'re missing a very important point: the Oral Torah is no less a transmission by G-d at Sinai than the Written Torah. Both were given to Moses and taught to Israel and handed down throughout the ages. Poetic license doesn\'t have overriding authority here. Just the opposite.\n\nRegarding understanding Hebrew, the Torah and its laws can be translated and learned in any language. In fact, that\'s what happens all around the world, with plenty of people who don\'t know Hebrew studying Torah.\n\nThat being said, I have watched Marx Brothers\' movies with Hebrew subtitles. While I am thoroughly sufficient in both Hebrew and English, nothing beats the original. \n\nSeriously, it\'s not the Torah\'s fault that non-Jews who worship a false deity to begin with, don\'t consult with the sources before producing shoddy translations. Happens all the time in the publishing world. Christianity is not an exception.\n\nG-d has no problem delivering messages to anyone anywhere. But G-d grants humanity the freedom of choice to listen and accept His word or, as the song goes, \"a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.\"\n\nThere\'s one NT verse I confess that I love but it\'s got a sting to it, as far as I\'m concerned:\n\n\"The truth will set you free.\"\n\nAmen to that!");
AddReply(274556,"Shy guy","curious gentile","USA","02/07/08","Could you please explain Exodus 21: verse 23 in context with verse 22? I understand \"yatsa\" is used many times in the Bible meaning premature or live birth. The same writer of Exodus 21 wrote Exodus 23:26 and uses the Hebrew word \"skakal\" to clearly communicate \"misscarriage\". Is G-ds message only to be understood by thse fluent in Hebrew? That would leave countless millions without understanding over the ages.  I trust G-d is able to deliver his message into any language in spite of man. ");
AddReply(274493,"Leah, the KJV is both liberal and ignorant in its translations","Shy Guy","Jerusalem","02/07/08","Let\'s just say that the Christian \'scholars\' who were responsible for translating the Tanach over the last 2 millenium would barely have passed their Hebrew 101 course.\n\nAlmost all missionary claims to proof based on Tanach verses are dependent on either mistranslation, mispunctuation or refering to verses out of the context of their surrounding verses.");
AddReply(274467,"Ellen","Larry","","02/07/08","I admire Ellens. She recognizes the complexity of the task. Truth is, many of us are pretty ignorant about some elements of Jewish thought and history; or, we may know one subject but not another. \n\nAnd Ellen is tough. She is not interested in gaining advantage through gestures that compromise her beliefs. She knows, as do we all really, that in such times as these, we\'re looking for friends. We have the feeling of the world being against us, as much of it is. So here come the Christians with their \'love\'; and along with it their theories of evil behind which lurk...Jews. So, they claim it\'s the \'Christians and the Jews against the Freemasons\'; then they tell us that the Freemasons equal the Rothschilds. So we end up as our \'lover\'s\' enemies too. \n\nWe do stand alone; dwell alone. We have our history and the Evangelicals have an agenda. It\'s not about keeping us Jewish. ");
AddReply(274435,"to Shy Guy re: King James","Leah","Maaleh Adumim","02/07/08","that Chabad link is excellent!\n\nwow, I cannot believe that the King James version translates the Hebrew word \"ason\" as just \"mischief\"!!!!  the Hebrew makes it very clear that it is a fatality, as translated on the Chabad page.  (modern Hebrew also translates \"ason\" as a tragedy or calamity of any kind.)");
AddReply(274418,"Curious Gentile, in reference to Exodus 21","Shy Guy","Jerusalem","02/07/08","Go to this link:\n\nhttp://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/9882/showrashi/true/jewish/Chapter-21.htm\n\nThat will show you the Torah\'s English translation, as understood by the Torah\'s Oral Law, as handed down by G-d to Moses and Israel at Sinai. In addition, you will also see the commentary by RASHI (google for him) and therein references to the Talmudic tractate pages that bring down the Oral Laws.\n\nThere are no lack of incorrectly translated words in Christian bibles. Many of the mistranslations are often intentional, in order to construct a false legitimacy of NT claims.\n\nBTW, the 1611 King James Version has verse 22 as follows:\n\n\"22: If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman\'s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.\" Nothing about premature delivery there. But without the Torah\'s Oral Law, you are condemned to ambiguity, a life of guessing.");
AddReply(274398,"christian \"love\"","Torah Jew","Jerusalem","02/07/08","The following is from a christian posted on a christian forum explaining how to \"love\" the Jew:\n\nhttp://www.charismamag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=173\nHow can we fulfill our Lord\'s command to bring salvation to the Jewish people? \n\n1. LOVE THE JEWISH PEOPLE \nIf we want to help people we must first of all love them and be concerned about their salvation. Maybe you find it difficult to love a person because of one reason or another. Then remember: God hates and abhors sin, but He loves the sinner. You must also distinguish between the person and his attitude, not condoning the evil, though loving the person. \n\nMany Jews are still opposed to the gospel as Paul was in his ignorance and unbelief (1 Timothy 1:13).The apostle says: \"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes; but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers\' sakes\" (Romans 11:28). What an astonishing statement: Enemies of God and at the same time beloved of God. Yes, God loves His enemies! He loved us while we were yet enemies (Romans 5:8,10). Do you love those who try your patience and oppose the gospel? Paul experienced most persecutions from his own people and yet he loved them (Acts 9:23,24,29; 13:45,50; 14:2,19; 17:5,13; 18:12; 20:3,19; 21:1 1; 23:12-14). For Jesus says: \"Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you\" (Matthew 5:44).\n\nWe Jews are the \"enemies\" according to the christians.\n");
AddReply(274389,"to Steve in Fla","Leah ","Maaleh Adumim","02/07/08","1. Ellen makes it very clear that she is not \"pro abortion\".  the Jewish halachic view, while opposing abortion, does not match either the anti-abortion or pro-abortion camps of the US.  it is somewhere in between.  Ellen\'s point is that the even thought the Jewish view is closer to the anti-abortion group, we should not let them manipulate us into supporting *their* agenda.\n2. the article from Aish HaTorah is correct.  the Torah verse makes it very clear that this refers to miscarriage, not premature birth.  (if it were simply a case of premature birth, why would anyone need to pay damages?)   the two verses compare:  what happens if the woman is  injured and has a miscarriage, and what happens if the woman herself is killed.  this is not \"an explanation due to poliltical expediency\".  it is explained in this way by commentators such as Rashi, long before \"political correctness\" entered the scene.");
AddReply(274383,"Shy Guy & Aish links","Curious Gentile","USA","02/07/08","I have read the links provided by Leah which mostly give explanations from Jewish Law. What I was seeking was evidence straight from the Bible/Torah. I read Exodus 21:22 My bible translates the birth as \"premature\" not \"miscarriage\". If verse 21:23 is a continuation of the circumstance, then \"life for life\" does not sound like it\'s allowed in that case. Any other examples from the Bible? ");
AddReply(274228,"Ellen\'s great writing","Leah","Maaleh Adumim","02/06/08","Ellen has valuable thoughts and an eloquent way of expressing them.  I enjoy all of her articles.  ");
AddReply(274134,"Leah #17","Steve","Fla.","02/06/08","I find an immediate error in your Aish piece:\n\nAish: \"... The fact that the Torah requires a monetary payment for causing a miscarriage is interpreted by some Rabbis to indicate that abortion is not a capital crime.\"\n\nThe Torah portion here in view is taken from the book of Shemoth (Exodus) chapter 21.  Two men strive together and hurt a woman with child so that her child departs.\n\nThere is no mention of \"miscarriage\" in the text.  Some rabbis assumed (for purposes of political expediency?) it was a miscarriage.  \n\nFor all we know, this was a premature birth.  If there is no harm to the mother or to her child, then he shall pay as the judges determine.  If there is harm to either the mother or the child then you shall give, \"life for life, eye for eye,\" etc.\n");
AddReply(274126,"Ellen H. comes off as pro-abortion","Steve","Fla.","02/06/08","This is a very sad piece.  With the many thousands of abortions in Israel every year, do we need this discouraging article?\n\nWhile I have profound theological differences with my pro-life Christian neighbors, as a Jew I realize this is not healthy for any society; killing our children.  Israel is no exception.\n\nIt is easy to take the pro-abortion position Ellen takes.  After all who is against \"choice?\"\n\nPlease do not justify this sordid practice on the basis of Jewish law.  It does an injustice to our ancient prophets.");
AddReply(274120,"Curious Gentile, poster #17, Leah gave you the links","Shy Guy","Jerusalem","02/06/08","Her first link is sufficient.");
AddReply(274084,"Horrible Horrorwitz strikes again","Larry L.","","02/06/08","yuk, what a horrible person, and what a hypocrite");
AddReply(274053,"To Johan, about friendship","Shy Guy","Jerusalem","02/06/08","I don\'t know if you\'re commenting about Horowitz\'s article or about the talkbacks here. Ellen Horowitz is anti Christian missionary. If someone\'s not Jewish and they have no ulterior motives to harm any Jew\'s potential for what Judaism views as true spirituality, then Horowitz and most Jews, myself included, are more than happy to be friends. The problem is that Jews, especially in Israel lately, are being lavished with much untrue friendship by Christian individuals and groups who both blatantly and sublimely attempt to lure Jews away from the Torah. These are NOT our friends. These are the spiritual destroyers of our people. Real friendship is unconditional. We\'re seeing too many cases of \'friends\' who come with strings attached. Please direct your complaints to such Christians, who are blurring our ability to discern who is friend and who is foe among you.");
AddReply(273961,"Different subjects, same message","Christian","us","02/06/08","We get it Ellen, you hate Christians.");
AddReply(273957,"Judaism-abortion","Curious gentile","USA","02/06/08","Where in the Bible/Torah is abortion allowed?");
AddReply(273904,"for halachic discussion see Aish Hatorah website","Leah","Maaleh Adumim","02/05/08","http://www.aish.com/societyWork/sciencenature/Abortion_in_Jewish_Law.asp\n\nhttp://www.aish.com/spirituality/growth/Of_Earthquakes_and_Abortion.asp\n\n\n\n");
AddReply(273892,"It\'s sad","Johan","Trondheim","02/05/08","It\'s sad to see so many jews beeing angry at the christians. Fine, you don\'t believe in Jesus as your messiah, but surely you must recognize the fact that the christians are pretty much your last friends in this world.. And one day, you might need them..");
AddReply(273782,"life","kate b","uk","02/05/08","or yirmeyahu/jeremiah 1:5\n\nmedically, if both mother and child are in danger in pregnancy, the life of the mother comes 1st, in the uk\n");
AddReply(273743,"Posters","Simcha","Jerusalem","02/05/08","Keep in mind when you read certain posts that this is the reason some gentiles make distinctions between what they call \"Biblical\" Judaism as opposed to \"Rabbinical\" Judaism, although in actual fact there is no difference between the two.  Some gentiles (or maybe most) think that when a certain failed pretender died, his followers inherited the truth while we who remain faithful to Judaism inherited the \"corrupt Talmudic\" Judaism of the \"rabbis.\"  God forbid! They claim to love the Land and People of Israel but they do not love Judaism.  Clearly, from their comments, they continue to believe that they know our Law better than we who were entrusted with it do. Much as they might deny it, this is just another face of replacement theology.");
AddReply(273732,"Rodef","Azamin Ippish","Galutnya","02/05/08","Errrrrr. no.  If the child poses a threat to the mother\'s life, her actual life comes before the potential child, which to US is not fully vested with the rights of a human until it breathes.\n\nIt\'s a baby from fertilization?  How is that different from the old \"pro life\" point of conception?  Two cell divisions earlier or something?  What\'s next, life starts with the gleam in the postman\'s eye? ");
AddReply(273729,"I\'m shocked!","Azamin Ippish","Galutnya","02/05/08","Groups of Americans whose maternal grandmothers were Jews are not necessarily Jewish groups.\n\nThey pointed out that we don\'t believe a right wing religious nationalist killed by the Romans for being too obstreperously Jewish in public was the messiah?  We don\'t!");
AddReply(273724,"To Lars and Chicago","Shy Guy","Jerusalem","02/05/08","Janet in post #2 answered you both quite well. I just want to add that an apostate Jew named Jesus (who, by chance, is your deity on a stick) wouldn\'t have known what you\'re both basing your moral and legal claims on because abortion under very specific circumstances is permitted by the Torah and that is what G-d taught Moses and all of Israel some 3500 years ago and has been adhered to ever since by Torah observant Jewry. So are you saying that G-d made a mistake back then, or that Moses lied or that you simply know better?\n\nTo Janet, I would just change your words \"back when your ancestors were worshipping trees\" to \"back when your ancestors were swinging on trees.\" Or to quote Benjamin Disraeli: \"Yes, I am a Jew, and when the ancestors of the right honorable gentleman were brutal savages in an unknown island, mine were priests in the temple of Solomon.\"\n\nAnother sharp article by Mrs. Horowitz, pointing out critical nuances that are too easily overlooked.");
AddReply(273721,"To #6","Mikha\'el M","Jerusalem","02/05/08","The objection to #1 by #2 equally applies to #6. These laws are not so simplistic as \"fetus=human, do not murder --> do not kill fetus\".\n\nIn general, abortion is forbidden by Jewish law, for both Jews and gentiles alike. For both, abortion is considered murder (except it is often patur aval asur, forbidden but beyond the reach of a human court.\n\nBUT, when there is a threat the mother\'s life, two conditions occur:\n\n1) It is a potential life (the fetus) against an actual life (the mother). Normally, one cannot choose one life over another (whose blood is redder?), but here, it is a potential life against an actual one. In this case, one may choose the mother\'s life over the fetus\'s.\n\n2) The fetus is considered a rodef, a potential murderer, of the mother. If A is going to kill B, you kill A. So too here, if the fetus threatens the mother\'s life, kill the fetus.");
AddReply(273706,"AMEN!","Simcha","Jerusalem","02/05/08","Keep preachin\' it, Ellen! ;-)  You\'re 110% right!!");
AddReply(273670,"The gift of childbirth.","Adam Neira","Melb, Australia","02/05/08","Excellent commentary.\n\nAbortion should be avoided at all costs, but in some cases like rape, it may be necessary.\n\nWhat is required is more \"conscious conception\", not easy, casual, un-mindful sexual relations between men and women. Unfortunately all around the world abortion is used as a kind of contraception. An abortion always leaves some sort of residual trauma, whether that be physical, emotional or spiritual. \n\nPeople must acknowledge the tremendous gift that is the birth of a child. I believe that having a child is the most responsible thing one can do as a person. One should try and make the world as good a place as it can be before having a child, and if one does have a child they should exert supreme efforts at improving the world.\n\nThere is also a cosmic/divine element to bringing forth an earthly human soul from the realm of eternal souls, from whence \"The Yet to Come\" and \"The Dead\" dwell. Too many abortions, unsolved murders etc. wreak havoc with the cosmic order.");
AddReply(273622,"Who\'s decision is it, anyway?","Gary","Monterey, CA","02/05/08","Mrs. Horowitz,\n\nG-d is the only one to decide life!  He will decide when you or I die! His breathe into Adam gave him eternal life and he became a living soul.  Man nor woman should step into G-d\'s arena to decide who lives or who dies, or even when one lives or when one dies.  That\'s G-d\'s choice.  It\'s not a matter of politics!  It\'s a matter of G-d\'s Sovereign will!  It\'s not a matter of a personal opinion.  This is G-d\'s territory.  G-d will curse those who think that they are G-d. ");
AddReply(273607,"Proverbs 6:16-17","Chicago","Chicago","02/05/08","Ellen, your fear of Christians is clouding your better wisdom. What is detestable to God? The shedding of innocent blood.  Can you think of anything more innocent than that of an unborn baby?  And  the question Lars asks about, \"Is it a human being or not?\"  Simply ask yourself, when you wanted a baby, at 6 weeks pregnant you shouted for joy that you were \'with child\' ~ not a blob of tissue. God opened Sarah\'s womb and she was \"now with child\". An unplanned pregnancy may be inconvenient, but it is always a human life.  ");
AddReply(273578,"Lars-","Shimon","","02/05/08","No Lars, halachcally a fetus is NOT a \"human being\". There is no murder charge associated with abortion. But not defining a fetus as a \"person\" does not change the seriousness of the prohibition of abortions for convenience.\n");
AddReply(273561,"American Pro-life is not no abortion at any costs","Ephraim","NYC/Kfar Tapuah","02/04/08","");
AddReply(273540,"Good Opinion Piece","John","Venice Beach","02/04/08","Chris Smith has just shown what his intentions are and that he really doesn\'t care all that much about Israel if he is going there for that");
AddReply(273537,"to Lars from Oslo","Janet Kasten Friedma","Kochav HaShacha","02/04/08","This article is addressed to you, Lars, and the Jews who take Christian ideology seriously.\nWe don\'t need you to tell us what\'s in the Ten Commandments and/or how to interpret G-d\'s Law. Our rabbis were interpreting Torah back when your ancestors were worshipping trees. After what we suffered in the name of your god, you have a big hutzpa to preach to us, even on the obvious humanitarian cause of \"right to life\". Our Torah is our standard, not your simplistic interpretation of the Ten Commandments. The Sages understood better than you do what does or does not constitue \"murder\", and if they allowed abortions under certain rare circumstances, they knew what they were talking about. Ellen is not a Talmud scholar, but she also knows what she\'s talking about. We Jews must not allow Christians to shape our agenda.");
AddReply(273506,"The weakest among us","Lars Christian","Oslo","02/04/08","Ellen, you fail to answer the crucial question: is it a human being or not? If the answer is yes, then Jewish law, which includes the ten commandments, can\'t be misunderstood: \"You shall not commit murder\" ");

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